Have Tribute Concerts Gone Too Far?

[JSngry]

No, I got it. Axelrod had SCOPE!

Gillette was not who I would have expected. I wonder if it might have been his swan song at Capitol as well...

[paul secor]

Moms sometimes has some good points to make but, as far as Ascenscion goes, she ain't my co-pilot.

Edited November 3, 2011 by paul secor

[7/4]

Just doesn't sound like a money maker...Ascension?

[MomsMobley]

Leeway-- oh the 'importance,' in its time of 'Ascension' is obvious but thebeyond that gesture, the music ain't so hot-- Hubbard is brilliant ** elsewhere **; Marion and Archie are blathering (though capable of making decent albums elsehwere, though neither are top shelf soloists, etc), Tchicai is like a better James Spaulding but not better enough etc.

re: Kenton, it's hard to top Galt Macdermot but at least Carmichael gives it a try. Kenton plays "West Side Story" >>>>> "Ascension," let alone "City of Glass."

Barney Kessel "Some Like It Hot" >>>>> "Ascension."

Sabir Mateen is couldn't hang then and he only gets lip service now because he has an 'authentic' name, and a lack of competition within his micro-niche. Listen to a half-dozen Teddy Edwards or Bill Perkins records and tell me different.

Just doesn't sound like a money maker...Ascension?

[Leeway]

Hi Moms, I've seen Sabir probably a dozen times live, and while he certainly has his limitations, blowing hard and resourcefully and fluently in a free jazz environment is not one of them. I think he could hang with the Ascension crowd.

I think to argue that X played better here, and Y played better there rather misses the point of the album, which was to make a gesture towards another way of playing and thinking about music. I think that gesture still has resonance today, at least in the free jazz community. I think it is certainly a pivotal album in Coltrane's body of work. My only reservation about it is that Coltrane was still absorbing the lessons of Ayler, and not yet master of the idiom. But the album nevertheless has wonderful energy and spirit. In fact, to me, it is more spiritual than "A Love Supreme."

[MomsMobley]

I used to pay lip service to Mateen (saw him lots of '90s) et al and while he has a variety of moves (thus my Bill Perkins reference), none of 'em are particularly inspired. In a different era he'd be a respectable section player; as it stands, it leaves you wondering: we know nobody's buying this jizz (funniest recent earnest-if-misguided Organisssimo Q I recall: is somebody bootlegging Brotzmann records, like that's a way to make $$$!), which is fine, but given that you then have Total Freedom... what has he done with it?

I can appreciate, sorta, if people like his post-Ayler (via Bob Cooper) shuck the way I enjoy Terry Waldo but there's not much to it-- indeed, I'd argue there's more to what someone like Waldo uncovers, let alone the level of compositional/timbral invention on the Smile Sessions box.

I should clarify that I have the highest regard for Anthony Braxton, just that few of his own tribute records are a patch on his best originals. I did like the Monk album on Black Saint at the time. Add Roscoe Mitchell to the list of important jazz composers too, btw.

I'm with you on knocking "A Love Supreme" down a notch compared to "Crescent" or "Sun Ship" but "Ascension" is the sound of too many dudes trying way to hard to keep up and not knowing how. The struggle is there but it's not actually interesting.

Hi Moms, I've seen Sabir probably a dozen times live, and while he certainly has his limitations, blowing hard and resourcefully and fluently in a free jazz environment is not one of them. I think he could hang with the Ascension crowd.

I think to argue that X played better here, and Y played better there rather misses the point of the album, which was to make a gesture towards another way of playing and thinking about music. I think that gesture still has resonance today, at least in the free jazz community. I think it is certainly a pivotal album in Coltrane's body of work. My only reservation about it is that Coltrane was still absorbing the lessons of Ayler, and not yet master of the idiom. But the album nevertheless has wonderful energy and spirit. In fact, to me, it is more spiritual than "A Love Supreme."

[JETman]

It still seems to me that YOU are trying too hard to invent a language all your own.

[david weiss]

I can't say for sure but judging from the personnel, this Ascension gig is probably the work of the infamous, banned Organissimo member youmustbe......

[Leeway]

I used to pay lip service to Mateen (saw him lots of '90s) et al and while he has a variety of moves (thus my Bill Perkins reference), none of 'em are particularly inspired. In a different era he'd be a respectable section player; as it stands, it leaves you wondering: we know nobody's buying this jizz (funniest recent earnest-if-misguided Organisssimo Q I recall: is somebody bootlegging Brotzmann records, like that's a way to make $$!), which is fine, but given that you then have Total Freedom... what has he done with it?

I can appreciate, sorta, if people like his post-Ayler (via Bob Cooper) shuck the way I enjoy Terry Waldo but there's not much to it-- indeed, I'd argue there's more to what someone like Waldo uncovers, let alone the level of compositional/timbral invention on the Smile Sessions box.

I should clarify that I have the highest regard for Anthony Braxton, just that few of his own tribute records are a patch on his best originals. I did like the Monk album on Black Saint at the time. Add Roscoe Mitchell to the list of important jazz composers too, btw.

I'm with you on knocking "A Love Supreme" down a notch compared to "Crescent" or "Sun Ship" but "Ascension" is the sound of too many dudes trying way to hard to keep up and not knowing how. The struggle is there but it's not actually interesting.

Hi Moms, I've seen Sabir probably a dozen times live, and while he certainly has his limitations, blowing hard and resourcefully and fluently in a free jazz environment is not one of them. I think he could hang with the Ascension crowd.

I think to argue that X played better here, and Y played better there rather misses the point of the album, which was to make a gesture towards another way of playing and thinking about music. I think that gesture still has resonance today, at least in the free jazz community. I think it is certainly a pivotal album in Coltrane's body of work. My only reservation about it is that Coltrane was still absorbing the lessons of Ayler, and not yet master of the idiom. But the album nevertheless has wonderful energy and spirit. In fact, to me, it is more spiritual than "A Love Supreme."

Hi Moms,

I didn't see your post earlier. Just a few follow-up comments. We'll have to agree to disagree on "Ascenscion," but I do agree on "Sun Ship" and "Crescent." The position of all 3 of these albums to "A Love Supreme" is the position of mysticism to religion, rapture to theology, expression to statement. Mind you, ALS is still a wonderful album.

On Braxton, I found his two "In The Tradition" albums indifferent and uninteresting. I know from previous posts that a lot of people like them, but I think these albums are liked for the same reason I dislike them: they are performed from within the tradition. I also think Braxton had the wrong players for his intentions (good musicians, but not to the purpose). By the time he got to the Charlie Parker Project, then the 23 and 20 Standards, he found his way of looking at "the tradition," from the outside, but employing certain traditional tropes to provide the in-out approach to the music. I like these recordings a whole lot more. I think his real genius though is in his own compositions.

As for your comment on Roscoe Mitchell: Amen! Brilliant is an over-used word, but fits very nicely here.

[Steve Reynolds]

The Charlie Parker Projext is worthwhile as Misha and Han tear it the fuck up.

listen again if any of you might and tell me something different.

Having Vincent Herring as one of the altos (is he in the Marion Brown chair?!?!) is bit absurd...maybe if they brought in Brotz or Mats or even KV.....how about a shot of Steve Swell on trombone - damn take a chance at letting the guys who LIVE this music play it for an audience. I mean Mats & Brotz deserve to have a shot to clear out half the damn club.

or even Darius Jones, for jahs sake....

yeah - Jeremy Pelt might be in place of Freddie....and Drummond and Wilson are fine...but how about at least Nasheet Waits and Gerry Hemingway at the drums kits and I would be there just to hear the fucking onslaught.....

[David Ayers]

Jazz always had a recreative dimension, now it is rarely anything other than recreative in any of its aspects. As Moms says it is not really a mainstream in any of its manifestations and for that reason interesting to few but musicians and select enthusiasts. That said, the point of recreating Ascension is to rebut the claims of the Marsalis/Crouch axis to define jazz in terms of its landmarks up to but not including the avant-garde. So this project claims that kind of terrain and cites Ascension as a classic. Lets play it again and see what happens. Vandermark got his prize for realising that the the avant-garde needed to be treated with the respect of a classic. That wasn't genius, that was a good grasp of the facts. I don't doubt Lovano and Liebman looked sluggish and old, Coltrane tributes I've seen (some of which included Tyner, Jones and Workman) were so earthbound they made me doubt Coltrane (the records restored my confidence). Let's say someone plays Ascension and it's a bore. Let's say it always was a bore, or has become even more boring with the passage of time. So what? We decided to take another look, that's all. You think people are getting rich off this or it's some form of sell-out? It is perfectly valid, perfectly respectable and respectful. Odd target for the sneerers.

[Hardbopjazz]

This same band will perform a tribute for the 20 anniversary of Breathless by Kenny G in 2012.

[Pete C]

Ascension isn't one of my favorite Trane albums. Once every five or ten years is enough for me, but I do find Tchicai one of the highlights. Crescent is probably underrated. I love Sun Ship, but I prefer Transition.

Having been a Monk coverer myself, I must say there are lots of Monk covers I like, but especially Lacy.

I find most of Braxton's standards albums a total bore. He sounds like a poor man's Konitz on these to my ears.

[Patrick]

Is this Ascension tribute any worse than the Miles Davis Experience?

[alocispepraluger102]

as for me, i'm waiting for the much more vital 751st reissue of teo's splicings of 'bitches brew' played upside down and backwards.

Edited November 20, 2011 by alocispepraluger102

[A Lark Ascending]

Is this Ascension tribute any worse than the Miles Davis Experience?

Funnily enough on my only visit to New York I saw a concert at Birdland with the likes of Brian Lynch, Tom Harrell and Adam Nussbaum doing a 'tribute' to the early 50s Miles. It was a fantastic concert; what was more it got me investigating that period which is well away from the more celebrated Miles eras.

Similarly, Joe Henderson's 'So Near, So Far' went for some (mainly) unusual choices and produced what is my favourite late Henderson album.

It's the idea of 'tribute'/'celebration' that seems a bit icky. Re-exploring the music of earlier jazz eras has been part of the process all along and can deliver interesting new variations (Gil Evans' 'New Bottles, Old Wine') much as using tried and tested standards.

Maybe its just the straight re-construction of an album or concert that runs the greatest risk of just being a shadow. Possibly nice to attend in a concert, but not something you need to listen to again.

[BillF]

Is this Ascension tribute any worse than the Miles Davis Experience?

Funnily enough on my only visit to New York I saw a concert at Birdland with the likes of Brian Lynch, Tom Harrell and Adam Nussbaum doing a 'tribute' to the early 50s Miles. It was a fantastic concert; what was more it got me investigating that period which is well away from the more celebrated Miles eras.

Similarly, Joe Henderson's 'So Near, So Far' went for some (mainly) unusual choices and produced what is my favourite late Henderson album.

It's the idea of 'tribute'/'celebration' that seems a bit icky. Re-exploring the music of earlier jazz eras has been part of the process all along and can deliver interesting new variations (Gil Evans' 'New Bottles, Old Wine') much as using tried and tested standards.

Maybe its just the straight re-construction of an album or concert that runs the greatest risk of just being a shadow. Possibly nice to attend in a concert, but not something you need to listen to again.

You say exploring the music of the past has been part of the process all along, but in certain periods it becomes particularly noteworthy. I'd single out trad revivalism from Muggsy Spanier in 1939 to the Brits in the 50s and today where re-exploration of jazz of the classic period c.1945-65 is central. Incidentally, at last week's gig Greg Abate was selling his Silver tribute album, Horace Is Here. With the great Claudio Roditi on trumpet, it looks very tasty and I'm tempted! I'll probably get it when I see him in Southport in a few weeks time with a quintet that includes Jim Rotundi on trumpet - all worshippers at the shrine of 45-65, by the way!

Edited November 20, 2011 by BillF

[A Lark Ascending]

You say exploring the music of the past has been part of the process all along, but in certain periods it becomes particularly noteworthy. I'd single out trad revivalism from Muggsy Spanier in 1939 to the Brits in the 50s and today where re-exploration of jazz of the classic period c.1945-65 is central. Incidentally, at last week's gig Greg Abate was selling his Silver tribute album, Horace Is Here. With the great Claudio Roditi on trumpet, it looks very tasty and I'm tempted! I'll probably get it when I see him in Southport in a few weeks time with a quintet that includes Jim Rotundi on trumpet - all worshippers at the shrine of 45-65, by the way!

Yes, it goes in waves. I suppose it can be particularly influential when a generation of musicians find their preferred genre veering off in directions that can't comprehend or just find unsympathetic (as with your 1939 example); though its equally likely to affect younger musicians completely out of sympathy with the tenor of their own times (think Wynton!).

It's not the revisiting that unsettles me; its just the conceit that this is all being done as some sort of homage.

There's a very nice Alan Barnes Silver 'tribute' called 'Yeah!' - he dryly remarked at Appleby that if Silver had been British he'd have called that track 'Perhaps'. A good 3CD reimagining by the San Francisco Jazz Collective too, with newer compositions woven in.

Edited November 20, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[BillF]

There's a very nice Alan Barnes Silver 'tribute' called 'Yeah!' - he dryly remarked at Appleby that if Silver had been British he'd have called that track 'Perhaps'.

Yes, Alan has a very deflationary view of Britishness! At a talk he gave on Basie he remarked that drummer Sonny Payne used to throw the sticks in the air and catch them on the way down. When I interjected "And sometimes drop them" (which I'd seen) Barnesy quipped, "There speaks an Englishman!"

[A Lark Ascending]

There's a very nice Alan Barnes Silver 'tribute' called 'Yeah!' - he dryly remarked at Appleby that if Silver had been British he'd have called that track 'Perhaps'.

Yes, Alan has a very deflationary view of Britishness! At a talk he gave on Basie he remarked that drummer Sonny Payne used to throw the sticks in the air and catch them on the way down. When I interjected "And sometimes drop them" (which I'd seen) Barnesy quipped, "There speaks an Englishman!"

I'd sooner have the self-deprecation than all that 'Britain's Got Talent/Stars in Their Eyes' 'I'm going to reach for my dreams - weep weep - you are all so special - I want to share my pain with the world so you can see what I've had to go through to get here...blah! blah blah!'

Behind the stiffer upper lip, trench humour there's normally something very genuine and positive going on. I'm not sure about all the candyfloss emoting we seem to have imported in the last 50 years.