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remembering the monstrous stan kenton


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Further, Jim, I think that's exactly what Hajdu was up to here, which accounts for the odd brevity of the piece. It started off like it was going to be a quite hostile but fairly extensive account of Kenton alleged artistic monstrousness, and then Hajdu shut it down after citing Kenton's telegram in order to prove that Hajdu himself is indignantly on the side of racial righteousness. "See," he's saying, "Kenton is a multi-purpose monster. And I'm angry at him on your behalf, too!"

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So, Kenton didn't send the telegram?

Of course he did, but that doesn't invalidate what I said: "...whacking the Kenton pinata is a handy, calculated way for a white writer to cover his flanks in the game of racial-cultural politics."

But you knew that already, right?

What I don't know is where "whacking the Kenton pinata" ends and simply calling bullshit on Kenton's bullshit (and there is plenty of it, musically and otherwise) begins, or the other way around.

I mean, does every white guy have to stand up for the guy every time out in order to not be thought of as a traitor in the "game of racial-cultural politics"? Who then, will be our Murray/Crouch/Marsalis? And can we kill them now before they get their footings too firmly planted?

The guy was, at best, a sponsor who didn't really know what he wanted nearly as much as he knew what he didn't want. In the process, some pretty good, occasionally great, writers produced some (but only some) pretty good, rarely great music played by a band that more often than not played that music waaaaaaay louder than it needed to be played (although, when it really did need to be played that loud, and on occasion it did, they answered the call quite adequately).

Bottom line - Kenton, by the accounts of those who were there, didn't even remotely "get" Graettinger. all he got was that it was "modern", and therefore "important" and therefore he wanted to be associated with it. He honestly had no idea if it was genius or junk, none whatsoever. That's your "giant" right there. A fanboy with an opportunity and a band. I mean, it's nice that he gave those he gave a chance that he did, seriously, it is, but...yeah.

Pinatas aside, racial politics aside, all his old sidemen and Anthony Braxton liking him aside, the good writing that got done in his self-proclaimed "Creative World" aside (and make no mistake, the Standards In Silhouette album that Bill Mathieu did for the band is intensely brilliantly "Kenton-esque" in a way that Kenton himself could never get to himself) , the guy was not in any way "important" to any kind of music that is truly important to me. If there ever comes a time when I'm supposed to "reconsider" that he even might be, then hey, fuck it. I'm not living in that world.

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Further, Jim, I think that's exactly what Hajdu was up to here, which accounts for the odd brevity of the piece. It started off like it was going to be a quite hostile but fairly extensive account of Kenton alleged artistic monstrousness, and then Hajdu shut it down after citing Kenton's telegram in order to prove that Hajdu himself is indignantly on the side of racial righteousness. "See," he's saying, "Kenton is a multi-purpose monster. And I'm angry at him on your behalf, too!"

I have even less use for Hajdu's bullshit than I do for most of Kenton's music.

He wrote a biography of Strayhorn. Big Fucking Deal, thank you for that, now just go away.

Strayhorn mattered. Hajdu doesn't.

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So, Kenton didn't send the telegram?

Of course he did, but that doesn't invalidate what I said: "...whacking the Kenton pinata is a handy, calculated way for a white writer to cover his flanks in the game of racial-cultural politics."

But you knew that already, right?

What I don't know is where "whacking the Kenton pinata" ends and simply calling bullshit on Kenton's bullshit (and there is plenty of it, musically and otherwise) begins, or the other way around....

It begins and ends when your common sense tells you that someone is bringing up Kenton to pin a bag of self-righteousness on himself.

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And when did Kenton send that telegram? Fifty-some years ago?

If you listen to a lot of white musicians today, it could have been this afternoon.

But really, the telegram and all that comes with it is irrelevant today. What is relevant is that...uh...mmm...

Sorry, I can't think of anything about Stan Kenton that is relevant today.

Carry on!

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And when did Kenton send that telegram? Fifty-some years ago?

If you listen to a lot of white musicians today, it could have been this afternoon.

But really, the telegram and all that comes with it is irrelevant today. What is relevant is that...uh...mmm...

Sorry, I can't think of anything about Stan Kenton that is relevant today.

Carry on!

What's relevant about Kenton today (at least in this case, as I said early on above) is that he still can be used (as I think he has been by Hajdu) as a kind of inside-out Stepin Fetchit -- a figure that all right-thinking folks can agree deserves/demands total execration.

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What's relevant about Kenton today (at least in this case, as I said early on above) is that he still can be used (as I think he has been by Hajdu) as a kind of inside-out Stepin Fetchit -- a figure that all right-thinking folks can agree deserves/demands total execration.

And a lot easier than, say Lennie Tristano, because by and large, there's just not that much there musically to defend. A relative few exceptions to the rule, but really - how much can you defend the predominant reality of The Creative World Of Stan Kenton (loud and shallow!!!) rather than the idea of it (A Fertile Laboratory For Writers And Other Constantly Dissatisfied Probing White People, None Of Whom Are Racist, And None Of Whom Wrote The Them To Jony Quest But Could Have, Most Of Them, Anyway)?

It's silly that this Hajdu guy attacks the man rather than the music, because once you get through looking at all the music instead of just cherry-picking the outliers, the music pretty much renders the man irrelevant. Mission accomplished without any help.

Let's just leave the both of them to their own silly irrelevance. Life will go on, and for the better, without either of them.

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Graettinger. Johnny Richards. Russo. Holman. I think that's an extremely important jazz legacy.

How so? And more to the point, how is that Kenton's legacy, other than in the same sense that, say, All In The Family is CBS's legacy more than it is Norman Lear's?

Me, I'll pass on Richards altogether (too damn loud, too damn silly, just...ridiculous) & Russo (too damn somber for my tastes, although the intellegence is unquestionably there, to me it too often sounds like a man looking for the dark at the end of a tunnel).

Just doing something does not make it intrinsically important...it's only important to whoever it's important. "Hot Dog" is infinitely more important to me than is Johnny Richards, although at the end of the day, if I had to choose just one, I'd save the trouble and take neither.

As far as "extremely" important, in jazz, that's Armstrong, Parker, Prez, Ellington, Trane, Ayler, a few others...Rollins, Warne...a few more, at least for me. If it's Kenton, then it's another world entirely afaic. I like "other worlds" as much as anybody, but that's one that doesn't have a lot of "there" there, although not for a lack of extreme exertion...

Edited by JSngry
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As far as "extremely" important, in jazz, that's Armstrong, Parker, Prez, Ellington, Trane, Ayler, a few others...Rollins, Warne...a few more, at least for me. If it's Kenton, then it's another world entirely afaic. I like "other worlds" as much as anybody, but that's one that doesn't have a lot of "there" there, although not for a lack of extreme exertion...

See ... Just like the "pompousness" of Kenton is "another world" to you, to some the "noise" of certain Aylers and Tranes would be "another world" altogether too. Would make those musicians irrelevant, then, too. :D :D

As for the "importance of the man" (provided this was what what the debate was about - which I doubt - it was about the Kenton BAND which you can like or not, like you are free to like Ayler etc. or not), at the very least he was a catalyst who brought persons, musical outputs and sounds together and made them jell and spark. Like others did in their field of jazz too. But, again, I cannot see this primarily is what appreciations of the Kenton MUSIC are about today.

As for the telegram ... oh well ... IMHO it really just was the backside of the coin the other (front?) side of which spelled out "Crow Jim". Not very nice for sure but a sign of the times and to be viewed and assessed as such. And nothing to file in the "self-pity" category. "Crow Jim" did exist and was not a phantom. And it was just as silly as "Jim Crow" in the field of jazz.

In short ... to each his own.

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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To Herman Leonard, it's about the shoes:

Me, I'm a country boy, and in a perfect world, I'd just as soon go barefoot at all times.

If you know what I mean.

So to Herman Leonard, Prez was all about the hat?

Which would mean that as a country boy in a perfect world you'd just as soon go bare-headed? :D :D

Odd ... ;)

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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For me "what's relevant about Kenton" is the music left behind - arrangements, solos, etc. The myth of the man (there seem to be at least 2) is not of import to me.

Just to be clear, I agree with the above. My sidebar point, prompted by Hajdu's piece, was that to some Kenton apparently still is worth kicking at for musical and socio-political reasons.

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For me "what's relevant about Kenton" is the music left behind - arrangements, solos, etc. The myth of the man (there seem to be at least 2) is not of import to me.

Just to be clear, I agree with the above. My sidebar point, prompted by Hajdu's piece, was that to some Kenton apparently still is worth kicking at for musical and socio-political reasons.

I agree with both of the above. To completely denigrate (!) his music is to not understand it. It's a big body of work - at times pompous, overblown, pretentious - and much of the time of great musical value. Was he a saint? Probably not.

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Agreed on both counts.

Was he a saint? Probably not.

Many celebrated musicians (incl. many jazzmen) weren't. A subject often discussed here. Why should the quintessence of those earlier discussions be handled any differently in Kenton's case? ;)

To completely denigrate (!) his music is to not understand it. It's a big body of work - at times pompous, overblown, pretentious - and much of the time of great musical value.

Some of Kenton's music is pompous and overblown - O.K., happens with others too.

No need to spit venom (unless the spitters have a personal axe to grind or are out for cheap effects). As for dealing (or getting even) with that pompousness anyway, here is some recommended listening: ;)

Johnny Dankworth Orchestra, "Experiments with Mice" (Parlophone R4185, rec. May 10,1956). :D :D: :D

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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To completely denigrate (!) his music is to not understand it. It's a big body of work - at times pompous, overblown, pretentious - and much of the time of great musical value.

Other than Graettenger & Mathieu, where is the great musical value? The Holman/Russo charts are certainly good, occasionally very good, but great (exception - Holman's marvelously fluorescent chart on "Malaguena", which is now a staple of drum and bugle corps everywhere)? Rugolo was a formula writer (with a formula that was sometimes more engaging than other times), Richards a buffoon (albeit a skilled one), Niehaus a skilled craftsman, etc etc. Dee Barton got some play, but he too was pretty much a one-trick pony (exception - his "Here's That Rainy Day", which is a totally gorgeous work, and the slower it's played, the more gorgeous it can become..more than once I heard the band play it verrrrryyyyy slooooowwww and god, it was goregeous!). I'll give Gene Roland "interesting" for sure, but "great"...file that one under "different strokes", I guess.

Oh yeah, Willie Maiden. But Willie Maiden was always Willie Maiden.

"Great" is like "genius", a convenient word for casual conversation, but when it's used in a serious way, it should mean something other than "pretty damn good".

What's not being discussed here at all is the overtly commercial work under his name, of which there is a lot. It's...not good. Let's also consider the arrangements he did himself. They too are not very good. Competent, but entirely formulaic and limited in imagination. This is why he needed other writers to give him not just a book, but an identity beyond what he was able to conjure up on his own.

Believe me, I know Kenton's music, from the pre-Decca Balboa airshots to the final days of mostly student-populated bands that served a truly meaningful place in the development of a lot of young players, but just didn't have that much of interest to offer musically (for my tastes, anyway) other than being energetic vehicles for young players getting out on the road and such. Kenton was a big deal when I first came to jazz, what with the inroad he made into the early jazz education/stage band movement. He was presented asvery much a "contemporary jazz hero", and until I found out what all else was going on in "contemporary jazz" outside of his orbit, I ate it all up. All of it.

But now, I've spit a huge chunk of it out, and with no regrets. Taken as a whole, counting the bad and the average and the really good and the great, the totality of the Kenton output is convincingly weighted towards the whole thing being not too much more than a triumph of style over substance, the exceptions very much being the rule rather than the exception. It gets excited over devices, not substance, and it is always pleased with itself for having simply done something "different", even as it is displeased with itself for now needing to do something else "different".

Yes, there is a "voice", and yes, there is definitely sincerity. But it's the voice and the sincerity of the car salesman who is fervently pitching next year's model to the customer who thinks that next year's model is the only model worth a damn, even while he's not yet broken in this year's model (which was at the time the only model worth a damn), and they both believe that things will forever progress and it will be good and it will be good because they made it so.

That's all good within itself, but...I'll be damned if within itself is anyplace I'd want to live, or visit more than a few minutes.

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just didn't have that much of interest to offer musically (for my tastes, anyway)

We can differ on the relative meaning of words such as "good" and "great". This is just splitting hairs. While I don't lean in the direction of Kenton's world very often these days, I still hold him in pretty high regard for the enjoyment his music provided me in my formative years. I still think that "New Concepts of Artistry in Rhythm" and "Contemporary Concepts", to name two, are GREAT albums. The disciplines of musicianship that he stressed are still important today, and should always be, in my opinion. As much as "third stream" music may be out of fashion these days, Kenton can be cited as one of its founding fathers, and the idea that written music in the jazz idiom is valid still holds true for me.

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