Any composers out there?

[fasstrack]

Would like to talk to fellow writers about a variety of subjects (small group/big band writing/arranging, songwriting w/lyrics, thoughts on the masters' work, exchange of info on getting things out there, etc.). So there's a lot to get into. Please dive in. We can teach each other things.

[Joe G]

Got any tricks for getting "unstuck"? Probably a meaningless question. It's just that sometimes we get these tune ideas that really seem to resist development, which can be frustrating. Sometimes I feel as if I have no imagination at all.

[fasstrack]

No tricks other than waiting it out. I put the sucker away unfinished and look again when I'm less 'involved'. I had one case with a ballad waltz where it didn't feel right so i put it on my piano and forgot it for about 8 years, then rediscovered it and said 'wait a minute, this is pretty good'. I changed some things right then and there and the tune was good. When I'm writing for myself without a deadline I can afford to do that.

But I'm also an insane perfectionist---I'm sure many can relate. Since I got into writing lyrics recently (largely out of frustration in not being able to find a professional lyricist of quality and availability) the first lyric I wrote drove me nuts----and got pilloried by people I took it to that critique lyrics. (It helped, though. I needed to hear what they had to say). The first singer I sent it to hated my lyric--and was right (the diva bitch!). But, again after leaving it alone for some time, I rewrote it twice, recorded it then changed the verse (melody included). Now I mostly like it, and want to send it into the world and to a home with good singers. But to finish it? Damn!

But generally with melodies things usually go pretty smoothly, thank God. When they don't, see above.

Hope any of that helped. This s#@* don't come easy.

[Joe G]

I think it helps just to know that other composers have the same problems. Yes, I've also come back to ideas after a year or more and was able to find a resolution to the piece. It's just that I want it now!

Perfectionism. This is where the inner critic reigns supreme. A closed, debilitating loop. It's pretty hard to write something if it has to be perfect, no? I'm working hard to let go of that tendency, too.

[Joe G]

BTW, welcome aboard, Joel. Hope you find the digs to your liking.

[fasstrack]

Thanks. Actually, it's more like a closed, debilitating poop. But we won't get into that now.

[mikeweil]

Sometimes it helps me to kick a tune around in my head without writing it down until I have the complete arrangement, not just an idea on music paper. Just like I would have to learn without sheet music. If it's rounded so well that you can memorize it, it will be okay and have its own inner logic.

[fasstrack]

Yeah. Complete picture first, dig that. That reminds me of the stories you always hear about the great classical masters being able to improvise fully realized cadenzas and such. You just figure they had to 'see' the whole thing first---not that they didn't improvise and add on the fly.

Your comment also reminds me of something Mozart was quoted as saying, about how he gets the germ of an idea first and then it cooks in his head til he sees the whole thing. Then he'd write it down. So what better validation do you need?

I've heard Jim Hall talk about 'seeing' the outline of a solo as he plays it. He's such a compositional thinker and a good composer that the proof's in the playing. The purpose and forethought comes out, but he's still spontaneous, and that's one reason it's jazz.

Forethought is also why a lot of people are graceful players, at least some of the time. But you still have to be in the moment, playing or writing. The difference between us and classical guys (including the heavyweight composers) is they don't interact and bounce off each other like we do. So even when we bring our reflection and compositional expertise to a (jazz) gig, we still have to be able to listen, respond, turn on a dime.

Good food for thought. Thanks.

Joel

[fasstrack]

Is that it? I'm pretty disappointed. Maybe I'll start my own forum for writers. There's stuff that's important to talk about.

Well, I did try.

[Joe G]

Sometimes topics are slow to get going. People bump these things up if they have something new to contribute.

[fasstrack]

Right. In the legend and lore of me as a musician of (ahem, choke...sputter....hock-a-lugie...) world renown*, it's been rumored that patience is not among the forefront of my core attributes. Ha!

Let me try practicing again: OOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM. Shit, it almost worked this time!

I emailed you, Joe. Did you ever get it?

*Think of me as the Jewish Les Brown.

C'mon composers. Come out, come out, wherever you are. Pretty please? Cherries, etc.? I'm seriously reaching out here. We're a small community and it would be good to know who we are and what we're trying to do.

Like Mammy Yokum 'I has spoken'.

[Joe G]

Yes, I got the email, and will reply. More later.

[SGUD missile]

Just bumped into this thread, and I thought I'd UP it:

Writing music has been my real gig for forty or so years ..

( check out the bio at www.philkellymusic.com if youre interested )

So: any questions , opinions , etc on the nutz and bolts of writing music ..just jump in

maybe we can revive this baby

[Jim Alfredson]

I'm finding that technology can help tremendously in the writing process. Joe and I have been co-writing some pieces recently with my computer, running Reason 2.5 and Cubase SX. We can set up drum parts and bass parts and loop them and come up with melodic ideas to use. And of course you can just keep recording melodies... different takes, different phrases, until it sounds right.

We've also used it to work out rhythmic patterns (odd time signatures against 4/4, for example) and even used some of the built in sampled beats as writing tools.

Anyone else using modern technology to help compose?

[fasstrack]

I bought Cubase in 1995 and never wound up using it. It wasn't very good back then as a dedicated scoring tool. You had to play things in and I just wanted to write lead sheets. Of all of them I like Sibelius best and will probably be getting that. I have to do something because my parts look less and less good the more I write and the tireder I get. Presentation is everything to me, playing or writing. If you hand someone a part that looks like crap they may play it like crap because they figure you don't care.

But I'm much more interested in talking to composers about composing and songwriting itself, and which writers we admire and why. I've been more involved with writing tunes in recent years than pieces for larger ensembles (though I've been hearing music lately live that has been inspiring me to get off my ass and write for the big band after 15 or so years, and a friend has a nonet I'll probably write something for. They're such good players I can't resist). I love it and feel it's not easy to write good tunes. The world can't have too many. I think the good writers know who each other are and eventually find each other. That's what I was hoping to do here. I realize also it's a relatively small community. I also play (guitar) and take that as seriously, if not more, because you guys know what it's like to play----or not, and have your chops rot and your confidence head for a border town.

Register this with the Bureau of the Obvious: Music is a lot of work.

But I've been doing a bit of analysis lately of the great scribes of the last century, especially the great Broadway and film songwriters. I taped Oklahoma when it was on recently and really pulled apart Rodgers' use of delayed resolutions. For example, one of his favorite devices is writing a #5 against a major chord (let's say D# over a G chord) and waiting till the last possible second to resolve it to D against a D7, or whatever else he does. (This was also done to great effect in the tune "Ruby". I forget who wrote that one. Anybody?). An example of a #5 rubbing against a major chord from Oklahoma is "Out of my Dreams" (he really twists the intervals against the changes masterfully in that one). That tune is also a classic example of delayed resolution in the way he also uses a b5 and resolves to the 5th at the last half beat. (If anyone's interested, Alec Wilder discusses this tune in his chapter on Rodgers in the American Popular Song).

Taken with lyrics this kind of thing creates suspense in the listener's ear. They don't realize it, but their ears are being bent and they're dying to hear how it turns out. That's what good writing is to me, getting the listener to go on your ride with you. And one way to do it is avoiding the obvious (delaying the inevitable?) like Rodgers does. You can say that this is tame stuff, and jazz or other type writers take it more out than a little alteration on a major chord, but to me that's not the point. Intervals have a pronounced psychological effect on listeners. I'm sure of this. In Baroque music Bach is master of this game. He'll have notes bumping into each other in counterpoint and you don't know what the hell is going on till it reckons out a few beats or a bar later.

It's the kind of stuff that keeps me up nights!

Anyway, those are the kinds of things I had in mind. Writing, writers, exchanging info on getting our stuff heard. Like that.

Thanks for reading and participating.

Edited January 28, 2004 by fasstrack

[fasstrack]

Just bumped into this thread, and I thought I'd UP it:

Writing music has been my real gig for forty or so years ..

( check out the bio at www.philkellymusic.com if youre interested )

So:  any questions , opinions , etc on the nutz and bolts of writing music ..just jump in 

maybe we can revive this baby   

I read your bio, Phil. It's good you played for good singers. Probably wrote for them too, no doubt. That's a whole other part of the business and in my estimation can separate the men from the boys.

I'd like to play for a good singer again. Last one (of the caliber I'm talking about) was Hadda Brooks, from the West coast. She died a few years ago, and was wonderful. I'll remember the way she did "The Thrill is Gone" for the rest of my life.

I know it seems like I got off my own topic, but actually singers are great people to write for. It's something I want to do more and more. They're often looking for new material, and if you write tunes and lyrics (or work with a good lyricist) you can get stuff sung and make money from it. You just have to hang in, like with anything else.

[SGUD missile]

Hi Fast T

yeh ..I wrote stuff for all of them ( and basically played with Frank, Buddy , and Julie)

I did some allbum stuff back in the 60s/70s/ and early 80s ..when they still used

live musicians ..before the "machines" basically ate the record business ..

If want to get singer work ( I assume youre a keyboardist ?) the place to

hang is LA ..there are all kinds of guys looking for subs to cover gigs and all the accompaniests get to know one another ..

BTW: on the subject of technology, I used to use SMPTEtrak and DP back in my pre-retirement "commercial" days where most of the musical genres required it ..these days,

I still use Finale 2003 for a writing tool, and am going to upgrade to 2004 I think .

sequencers are great as writing and sketching tools, but since Finale ALSO plays back what I've actually WRITTEN, thats all I find I need these days ..

Edited January 28, 2004 by SGUD missile

[fasstrack]

I'm a guitarist, actually. We've been known to accompany singers----though the lesser ones that are unfortunately in the majority on the work scene seem to think we're invisible on the stand when there's a piano player there. Regardless of the quality of said piano player.

Such is life. As long as they pay me.....

I don't think L.A. is for me. New York is tough enough. At least you can starve and play jazz here, though. If if moved it would be to a smaller city with less musicians where there's still a viable scene. People mention Portland a lot. I thought of Philly, Washington, or even Atlanta, since I'm an East Coaster. I guess I'll hunker down here for a while, though, and follow up on some things I've started.

But here in NY ASCAP has a showcase for songwriters and you can go there and get stuff heard. They also have some other activities I want to look into, like a collaboration service (they find you lyricists). They distribute grant money, too---but within certain guidelines. I was curious if anyone was a member of SESPAC or any other performing arts assns.---and if they are worth joining. There's something called the Songwriter's guild that looks after royalties and also has a workshop. I tried it out and it wasn't for me, though I got some good constructive feedback.

There's got to be a way people who are trying to write quality, non pop dreck music---that still has a market, even if small--- can help each other. I'm gonna keep hammering away at it on this thread and maybe eventually we will find each other.

[SGUD missile]

Hey .. guitarists can be conductors too! I play a lotta R&B shows back when I was still doing that, and lots of the Motown and Philly acts would have guitarist /conductors

Youre right ..Portland IS a great jazz town for its size ..I know several excellent guitarists from that area ..

BTW: REgarding PROs ..I've been a member of ASCAP since 73 ..and they all have their good and bad points ..currently, those of us who primairily did film/tv scoring have a HUGE beef going on about the relative royalty rates between songs and 'score' ..

score getting it in the ass to the tune of .16 on the dollar vis a vis songs ..

but thats another argument!

[fasstrack]

Yeah, those are all good points. At this stage I still have to make my name. In terms of jazz composition, there's one well-known Grammy winning saxophone player that has played some of my pieces (and those of a friend who's also a good writer)----but hasn't recorded anything (which, obviously would be a big help). And I'm not gonna push him. He's a big boy, and staying in his face will only annoy, or even make an enemy out of him. He's a hero and getting the time of day from this guy, let alone him even reading through my things is important personal validation. I'm thrilled to have it, needless to say. But until somebody like that records something it's not professional validation, and I don't have to tell you there's a big difference. Those recording credits come in handy (though still are no guarantee of work). They're positives.

So the plan is to keep developing material for myself and becoming a good interpreter of it playing, while continuing to cast a net over the people I would like to have play the things. But this was a watershed year for me personally in that I really found my voice, and that's songwriting (as opposed to writing 'jazz ditties', though I'll continue to do that). I really want to pursue that. Writing tunes is something I've just always been able to do. I love doing it, more than arranging, to tell you the truth. Writing lyrics was a rude awakening---very humbling. I got into it recently and got my ass kicked. Well, I knew going in that you don't suddenly become a lyricist. It takes as many years as doing anything well does. But I want to take the ball and run with it now, find some singers looking for material, showcase, do whatever it takes. I also feel strongly that there's a need for good songs in life. So there is a spiritual component to it, too. If that sounds corny or pretentious I don't think it really is. Good songs make life at least more bearable, and at best do a great deal more than that. The payoff, if there is one, will be down the road. And I figure people will be led to the playing through the writing. And I may get lucky with a tune. All it takes is one. Know what I mean? That's my plan, anyway.

But generally, people have to know what resources are available. When I mentioned ASCAP I was talking not about their possibly ignoble royalty collection, but the programs they have for writers. All of us, regardless of where we are in the business, would be fools not to take full advantage of whichever PROs we're members of. And I still put the question to anyone to please come forward with info on SESPAC or any of the others. Even if they mostly suck, we need to find whatever good there is and run with it. Self-sufficiency is the stuff of survival, and in a brutal racket like composing we need all the help we can get.

Edited January 29, 2004 by fasstrack