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About Kai Winding


Gheorghe

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Hello!

Maybe some of you remember a thread I had started on the „Discography“ forum , titled „Mingus Question“. It was about the last session on which Mingus played bass in a studio, his group augmented by Lionel Hampton who produced the album, an Woody Shaw, Gerry Mulligan.

As I had noticed, on of the tracks „It might as well be spring“ didn´t sound as belonging to that session and I got great help from you, telling me that this track actually belongs to the Kai Winding album „Jazz Showcase“, also recorded in 1977. You also were so kind to give me a track list.

So I wanted to purchase that album since I love the way Kai plays, I was lucky to see him playing at the Viennese Club „Jazzland“ with a great local trio (Fritz Pauer, Bert Thompson, Fritz Ozmec) about the time when this album was recorded.

That was one of those great evenings, where I finally met that great musician who´s trombone I had enjoyed on some bop sessions with Tadd Dameron at Royal Roost, on the Jay&Kay albums and last not least together with Diz, Stitt, Monk on the „Giants of Jazz Tour“.

So, that special album brings some great memories back, it was recorded around the time I heard him and the track list is like a typical set how he did it on club dates. He even manages to play a fine version of „Epistrophy“, is great and strong as ever on faster tracks as well as playing beautiful soft on ballads.

Beautiful memories: I remember during that time I was just about finishing High School, and I enjoyed to have that reputation of being a jazz expert. Jazz during the second half of the 70s was much more popular than now even among very young people, who – maybe starting with some more popular „fusion“ stuff like Return to Forever, Headhunters, Billy Cobham-George Duke and last not least the electric Miles, just began to dig into fine, timeless acoustic jazz, names like Rollins, Joe Henderson, Dexter, Griffin, Diz, McCoy Tyner, the more straight ahead playing Archie Shepp etc.

As I told you, I had that reputation of being a first hand information to other kids at school who started to get interested in jazz.

I remember a boy from one of the lower grades. During intermissions he would try to meet me and ask me questions about the musicians, would ask me to give him tapes from LPs I had collected etc. Since he liked the trombone so much, once I taped that „J.J. Johnson-Nat Adderly“ Yokohama Concert for him and from then on I he´d hum the theme of „Horace“ and „Walkin“ all the time. Once he asked me to come into his class room and believe it or not, he had carved all the names of the musicians (Miles, Rollins, Mingus, etc. ) into his school desk, and in big letters there was carved: „J.J. Johnson is the best!!!!!“.

Few days later, Kai Winding was in town. I told my young fried „watch out, watch out, if you like J.J. Johnson you might like Kai Winding also“ . Naturally, he was underage and couldn´t get to the clubs, but I was 18, had got my first car and could do what I want, especially going the jazz clubs. So, the next morning at school I´d tell him how it was, how great sounded Kai Winding etc. He just nodded, intermission ended and everybody attended his classes. The next day, that boy again asked me to visit his class room, and believe it or not, under that carved „J.J. Johnson is the best!!“ I could read the carved letters „Kai Winding too“. The boy hadn´t even heard him, but trusted my opinion, just picking up another name of a jazz great.

Can you imagine that kind of high school live nowadays? Did it happen?

Anyway, yesterday I got my CD „Kai Winding Jazz Showcase“ , and before listening to it, I looked at the cover and said…more to myself „Kai Winding, too“. My wife: „pardon?“ and I just said: „well that´s simple to understand: J.J. Johnson is the best, and Kai Winding too!. My wife, who´s not really a jazz enthusiast, gave me that sweet smile and said „that´s it, as you say it….well….enjoy your music….“

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Kai Winding, too?

While I do enjoy the Jay & Kai duo, on the early sides (the RCA X album, for instance), Jay is way, way better than Kai who sounds very rough - and not rough in a good way (which I enjoy a lot from trombone players).

There are others from that time - Bennie Green comes to mind - that I prefer over Winding.

I did enjoy hearing for the first time the Winding Impulse album within the Creed Taylor Impulse box, though... he certainly was a fine musician, it's just that to me on those early sides with Jay, he can't hold up comparison (the Bethlehem though is mighty fine and they're good in the band behind Chris Connor, too!)

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thanks for your answer, king ubu, and good to hear other opinions.

Well that "Kai Winding too" has become something like a personal play on words, if you like.

But nevertheless, maybe it´s just that little rough sound that I dig. I heard it first on the live dates from Royal Roost, and like it on that early studio recordings like "Bop City", and above all on his solos with the Giants of Jazz, his solos on "I Mean You" of "Tour de Force" really knocked me out.

Bennie Green, yes sure, I like him. But I must admit I don´t have much more as a leader than his 3 BlueNote albums. They good stuff, makes me happy listening to it......yeah, the very very.......slippery trombonist .....Benny Green...

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Great story Gheorghe. Not sure I agree about Kai but great to see the impact you had.

thank you so much, Brad!

It took me some time to think if that story could be worth reading. You know, my knowledge of English is quite limited to the half forgotten school lessons, and a lifelong reading of sleevenotes from jazz albums, biografies on musicians, or talking to musicians if I am lucky....

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Great story! Never managed to catch J J, but saw Kai in London in 1972 with this outfit:

41zyttn0dYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Nowadays I frequently go to hear Lee Hallam and Duncan Winfield, a local trombone duo who play Jay and Kai's arrangements with great verve. Nice to know the music of those trombone masters is still alive!

Edited by BillF
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Brad: Yes, I did listen to Bill Harris. the first time I heard him on record was the WNEW Saturday Night Swing Session, where he is featured with Fats Navarro, Allen Eager, Charlie Ventura, Buddy Rich and others.

Heard some good stuff with Flip Phillips also....

BillF: Yes, great outfit. Also got a DVD of one of their concerts.....

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thanks for your answer, king ubu, and good to hear other opinions.

Well that "Kai Winding too" has become something like a personal play on words, if you like.

I understood that! And I enjoy reading your stories and memories, too!

But nevertheless, maybe it´s just that little rough sound that I dig. I heard it first on the live dates from Royal Roost, and like it on that early studio recordings like "Bop City", and above all on his solos with the Giants of Jazz, his solos on "I Mean You" of "Tour de Force" really knocked me out.

Bennie Green, yes sure, I like him. But I must admit I don´t have much more as a leader than his 3 BlueNote albums. They good stuff, makes me happy listening to it......yeah, the very very.......slippery trombonist .....Benny Green...

Green is definitively slippery... if you feel like hearing more, try finding his one Time album (on CD from Spain, around on various LP issues, too... I've got it on Bainbridge) and his fine Prestige albums, too (one with Farmer, for instance, another one with Griffin... plenty of nice additions to the Blue Notes.

I prefer older styles of trombone if I want it rough and direct... Dicky Wells, Vic Dickenson, Jack Teagarden (though he's smooth as hell!) and many others. My issue with Winding isn't really all that much, it's just that Johnson always seems way superior, in a class very much of his own, on most recordings from the late 40s to the early 50s. But I guess I will have to revisit some discs first and maybe reconsider my opinion, it's been a while that I played any Jay & Kai!

Giants of Jazz... well, ambivalent at best. Sometimes great bebop, sometimes it's more like a well-oiled machinery, Dizzy doing his gimmicks, Stitt his smooth auto-pilot thing... the one sad thing about the band is Monk, to me. He had somehow lost himself by that time, the piano player with the Giants of Jazz mostly doesn't sound like Monk that much. (This may be coloured somewhat by personal experience, too, as a crappy Giants of Jazz boot was my initial encounter with Monk... bad sound, crappy presentation, lacklustre music... took me a while to find my way back to Monk after that, but hey, I was 11 or 12 when I got that Giants of Jazz in my hands from the local library in my village... now don't ask me why they ended up having that lousy boot among their 30 or 40 jazz CDs).

Brad: Yes, I did listen to Bill Harris. the first time I heard him on record was the WNEW Saturday Night Swing Session, where he is featured with Fats Navarro, Allen Eager, Charlie Ventura, Buddy Rich and others.

Heard some good stuff with Flip Phillips also....

BillF: Yes, great outfit. Also got a DVD of one of their concerts.....

From what I gather about your tastes and likings, you should really enjoy these two:

e25152wtnhs.jpgr30586qjfdg.jpg

I'm not too big on Ventura (he's fine, but not that nuanced a player, or I haven't noticed those nuances yet, who knows), but I very much enjoy those discs (and some of his studio sessions, too... love that Ventura/Phillips Mosaic box!)

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On Bennie, his BNs and Time/Bainbridge outing (including Sonny Clark) are best. Thought the Prestiges were ok, just not eyeopeners. Same for Hornful of Soul on Bethlehem.

Those Harris HighNotes are worth having. There's also a Bill Harris Live at Birdland 1952 on Baldwin Records that is way cool.

Edited by Brad
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Hee hee .... reading the first few posts of that thread and those comments on Kai being rough, my immediate thought was "How about Bill Harris"? And BANG - there his name came up! :D

So if Kai Winding was rough, what to make of Bill Harris (at least part of his 40s/50s stuff)? "The trombone equivalent of those Honking Saxes"? :rolleyes:

I am not familiar with those High Note CDs but I guess they are the equivalents of the Harris/Ventura LPs released on Phoenix Jazz in the 70s?

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There's also a Bill Harris Live at Birdland 1952 on Baldwin Records that is way cool.

*VERY* cool that one, with some mean tenor by Lockjaw and Ray Abrams!

As for Bill Harris... call me funny or tell me to get my ears fixed, but to me he's more on the smooth side, really.

The rough thing... well yes, maybe, but not if you start listening more closely. Compare for instance Lawrence Brown with Tricky Sam and then tell us again!

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Isn't "rough" part of the trombone thing, from Kid Ory to Gary Valente? "Valente is known for his highly characteristic raucous rasping tone"(Wikipedia).

The beauty of the trombone is that it covers a wide stylistic spectrum. "Rough" is one approach, but not necessarily the default option. My preference is "smooth"(as in Fontana). Fortunately there's room for everyone. :)

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Isn't "rough" part of the trombone thing, from Kid Ory to Gary Valente? "Valente is known for his highly characteristic raucous rasping tone"(Wikipedia).

The beauty of the trombone is that it covers a wide stylistic spectrum. "Rough" is one approach, but not necessarily the default option. My preference is "smooth"(as in Fontana). Fortunately there's room for everyone. :)

Except for the back of the head of the sax player sitting in front of you :crazy:

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Kai came to my high school and did a clinic when I was a senior (which would have been in 1976). I wasn't real familiar with him at the time, but he was a very impressive player and clinician. I immediately went out and bought

some of his records.....Mosaic should do a box of all the J and K stuff...

bigtiny

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Saw JJ and Kai back in the late 50s on a UK tour. Front row seats, what a sound those guys made. Next saw Kai in London with the Giants of Jazz. We were sitting in a pub waiting for the concert to start and in walked Kai, Blakey and IIRC Al Mckibbon for a between set break. They were in good spirits but as we couldn't afford to buy them a drink we left them undisturbed. Something I regret now.

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