Pete C Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 So that's what the pre-Buddha-nature Jarman sounded like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 That's just a small excerpt. Point being though - do well allow rhetoric, even if it is the rhetoric of fantasy infanticide - to end our curiosity as to what makes people tick, or do we allow it to stimulate further curiosity? If I'd have thought thought that all Joseph Jarman was about was slitting my throat and killing my babies, I'd have left the room ASAP. I didn't, and I didn't, and I'm glad I didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Joseph Jarman it is, from the BYG notes to Message To Our Folks. Quoting ( believe accurately) from the late novelist-poet Gilbert Sorrentino: "People always think that artists have complicated personal motives for doing what they do, when in fact they have complicated artistic motives." Substitute "political" or "racial" or whatever for "personal," as you wish. And if/when there is a line to be drawn, whose ultimate prerogative is it as to where/when/why it gets drawn? It's not about drawing lines or ultimate prerogatives but about acknowledging how art and artists tend to function when they do. In particular, I'd say that while all sorts of political, racial, personal and what have you information obviously can enter the world of art, it typically (if the artist is any good) tends to get transmuted there by, to borrow the title of George Lewis' book, "A Power Stronger Than Itself."IIRC, the younger Jarman was something of a coffee-house Jones disciple. The cadences of Jarman's verse (e.g "Non-Cognitive Aspects of the City") speak of Jones' influence, which was of course very influential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiri_Baraka#Controversies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal Pomea Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiri_Baraka#Controversies Sometimes the entries in Wikipedia are not as interesting as what goes on "under the hood" in the Talk area for most articles, where you see the contributors debate and discuss how the article should read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Amiri_Baraka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 It's not about drawing lines or ultimate prerogatives but about acknowledging how art and artists tend to function when they do.... I think there's a lot of people for whom they feel that it is about drawing lines and ultimate prerogatives b/c they don't feel that the power to do so for themselves is still not theirs. Which, of course (and as you imply), has nothing to do with the quality of the "art" being made, but maybe something (at times) everything to do with how the "art" is perceived by differing groups of people what have differing of who exactly has what kind of power to do what. The surest way to cut through rhetoric to see if there's anything else to be had is to simply acknowledge its validity. World of difference between somebody screaming just to be screaming & somebody screaming just to be heard & somebody screaming to get somebody to listen. I just find it to be sometimes very irritating when people get all pissy about "black attitude" in jazz writing and then turn around and act like Martin Williams & Leonard Feather & Gene Lees & Whitney Balliett & Gary Giddins and all these "other folks" don't bring a "white attitude" to their stuff. Of course they do, they're white, and if it's not explicitly at the forefront of their "personas", that's probably because...is there any particular reason why it would need to be? "Mainstream" pretty much defines and reinforces itself, ya' know? It's not bad that they do it, it's who they are. And of course, there's as many "white attitudes" and "black attitudes" (and in-between) as there are black and white (and in between) people. It just bugs me when anything counter to the perceived (but all-but-impossible to truly exist) "race-neutral" POV gets dismissed like it's just not...legitimate to see, hear, feel, think some kind of other way and then put it out there. Like, just shut up with all that race stuff, that's not relevant to anything. The hell it's not. Anything is relevant if it becomes relevant (sic). grrrrrrrr...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Face of the Bass Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) Here is a video of Baraka reading the infamous "Somebody Blew Up America" with Rob Brown on saxophone. Edited March 1, 2012 by Face of the Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 What I have found interesting about a cursory explore of Baraka on the internet, is that despite the desultory view of Cornel West, that 'jazz' is now just a fetish thing for old white men and rich kids, reading Baraka makes you feel like 'it aint necessarily so' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Face of the Bass Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Coincidentally enough, this week I've been reading a book of Baraka's essays from the 1960s, Home. The more I read of his work the more I like him. What I like is that he's rough around the edges, somewhat unpredictable, with an amazing grasp for language but always a little bit off from what you might expect. Some of the essays are forgettable but a few of them burn with a ferocity that is rarely found in American literature. I also love the way he tears into the black middle classes and other black writers of that time, especially James Baldwin and Ralph Ellison. I also don't really have any problem with "Somebody Blew Up America." I think the charges of anti-Semitism are vastly overstated. I think he's incorrect to dabble in 9/11 conspiracy theories but that doesn't bother me so much. Most of the stuff chronicled in the Controversies section of his Wikipedia page strikes me as much ado about not very much. But that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnlitweiler Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 There are some really fine Baraka readings of his poetry on the New York Art Quartet recording "35th Reunion" from 1999. Face, thank you for that video of "Who Blew Up America." The fire still burns, thank God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 The fire still burns, thank God. I suppose if you're a fan of wildfires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 am I wrong, or didn't Baraka help spread the (vicious) silliness that the Jews were warned out of the World Trade Center before the attacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 am I wrong, or didn't Baraka help spread the (vicious) silliness that the Jews were warned out of the World Trade Center before the attacks? From the "brilliant" poem: "Somebody Blew Up America by AMIRI BARAKA Somebody Blew Up America . . . Who know why Five Israelis was filming the explosion And cracking they sides at the notion ... Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers To stay home that day Why did Sharon stay away? . . . Copyright 2002. AMIRI BARAKA." http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/10/03/somebody-blew-up-america/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 worse than I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 On the Sharon/World Trade Center canard, Baraka is on the same page with another poet, David Duke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 On the Sharon/World Trade Center canard, Baraka is on the same page with another poet, David Duke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 yeah, much as I respect some of his work, that poem makes it hard to really move on. He belongs at St. Elizabeth with Ezra Pound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 You guys want to buy my Joseph Jarman records? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 I once knew the guy who was Ezra Pound's shrink when Pound arrived at St. Elizabeth's. They got on fairly well together, all things considered, even though that then-young psychiatrist was Jewish, but there was the day Pound performed for him, complete with grotesque hopping-about gestures, his version of "The Yiddish Charleston." You guys want to buy my Joseph Jarman records? Probably have them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Well, ok, but when mau-maus slit my throat and kill my children, I'm blaming your book. At least...as best as I can with a slit throat. Not sure how that's gonna work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Well, ok, but when mau-maus slit my throat and kill my children, I'm blaming your book. At least...as best as I can with a slit throat. Not sure how that's gonna work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 "The Yiddisher [sometimes "Yiddishe"] Charleston": Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 The more tings change.. Well, ok, but when mau-maus slit my throat and kill my children, I'm blaming your book. At least...as best as I can with a slit throat. Not sure how that's gonna work... Is that a lawn mower exhaust sticking out of that guy's neck? God, where has that mouth been? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 God, where has that mouth been? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silence_%28The_Twilight_Zone%29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Yeah, I recognize that, but it's never registered before what that thing really is - it's a lawn mower exhaust! That means that that mouth has been mowing grass, and that's EEEEEWWWWWWW!!!!!!My bad, it's a muffler, not an exhaust pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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