493 replies to this topic

[brownie]

From The Washington Post today

Herbie Hancock Memoir

[mikeweil]

I'll get me a copy, that's for sure!




But the Mwandishi book first ...

[AllenLowe]

I especially like this from the article:

"The book will be, in part, a financial journey. Hancock will tell of being a greedy pianist who, after disavowing his Lennie Tristano influence, decided to make as much money as possible by playing bad music.
"Hey," Herbie added, "when I die I'll have more money in the bank than Bud Powell, Lennie Tristano, Hank Jones, Fats Waller, Art Tatum and Jelly Roll Morton combined. So who's the chump now?"

Edited by AllenLowe, 11 April 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[umum_cypher]

I especially like this from the article:

"The book will be, in part, a financial journey. Hancock will tell of being a greedy pianist who, after disavowing his Lennie Tristano influence, decided to make as much money as possible by playing bad music.
"Hey," Herbie added, "when I die I'll have more money in the bank than Bud Powell, Lennie Tristano, Hank Jones, Fats Waller, Art Tatum and Jelly Roll Morton combined. So who's the chump now?"

No way! I was wondering how long it would take for Tristano to show up on this thread. Got it in 2!

[Larry Kart]

Well, Herbie has acknowledged the influence of Chris Anderson.

[JSngry]

As well as Robert Farnon & Nelson Riddle.

[ValerieB]

I especially like this from the article:

"The book will be, in part, a financial journey. Hancock will tell of being a greedy pianist who, after disavowing his Lennie Tristano influence, decided to make as much money as possible by playing bad music.
"Hey," Herbie added, "when I die I'll have more money in the bank than Bud Powell, Lennie Tristano, Hank Jones, Fats Waller, Art Tatum and Jelly Roll Morton combined. So who's the chump now?"

!

i don't think this is very funny at all, Allen, or clever. sounds like you'd maybe like to be slapped with a lawsuit. don't you have something better to do with your time than make up crap like this?!? if you're going to engage in this kind of behavior, you'd better think better of putting things in quote marks!!!!

Edited by ValerieB, 11 April 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[AllenLowe]

actually, I don't have anything better to do.

though I do think the quote is accurate, even without having access to those pianists' bank accounts.

Edited by AllenLowe, 11 April 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[Mark Stryker]

Reluctant as I am to reopen this can of worms, I do want to point out this passage from a recent Tristano biography by Eunmi Shim in which Hancock directly address the issue of Tristano's influence. I'm sure Allen will say that Herbie doesn't go far enough and this is more evidence of his denial of his prime influence (smile). Having said that, however, one of the issues that came up here in prior dicussions about possible links between the two pianists was the contention that Hancock never talks about Tristano and this is actually further evidence that deep links do indeed exist, a misdirection ploy by Herbie to throw us off the scent. So in that context it's worth noting that he does speak about Tristano here (and admiringly). Of course, I'm sure interpretations of all this will vary.

Coda: If somebody has the book, could you look up the footnotes to find the sources, because it would provide interesting context. When Herbie says "at that time" what is he refering to -- when the music was played or when he first heard it? And when did he make these comments?

http://books.google....ristano&f=false

Edited by Mark Stryker, 11 April 2012 - 04:58 PM.

[Larry Kart]

As well as Robert Farnon & Nelson Riddle.

Yes, and Chris Anderson said he was influenced by the same guys -- this (their influencing Anderson) taking place when Hancock was still in maybe seventh or eighth grade, if that. Thus, while meaningful independent Hancock encounters with the music of Farnon and Riddle might have been possible, the likelihood is that Anderson was the filter. Certainly Anderson's music circa 1955-6, when I first heard him, often had a sweeping cinematic flavor. One can hear that on the recent Fresh Sounds reissue of his first two albums, for Vee-Jay and Jazzland. The Vee-Jay was new to me and is terrific.

[Larry Kart]

Reluctant as I am to reopen this can of worms, I do want to point out this passage from a recent Tristano biography by Eunmi Shim in which Hancock directly address the issue of Tristano's influence. I'm sure Allen will say that Herbie doesn't go far enough and this is more evidence of his denial of his prime influence (smile). Having said that, however, one of the issues that came up here in prior dicussions about possible links between the two pianists was the contention that Hancock never talks about Tristano and this is actually further evidence that deep links do indeed exist, a misdirection ploy by Herbie to throw us off the scent. So in that context it's worth noting that he does speak about Tristano here (and admiringly). Of course, I'm sure interpretations of all this will vary.

Coda: If somebody has the book, could you look up the footnotes to find the sources, because it would provide interesting context. When Herbie says "at that time" what is he refering to -- when the music was played or when he first heard it? And when did he make these comments?

http://books.google....ristano&f=false

The passage comes from an interview with Hancock conducted by a former Tristano student, Jon Easton.

[AllenLowe]

thanks; funny thing is I have that book.

[JSngry]

As well as Robert Farnon & Nelson Riddle.

Yes, and Chris Anderson said he was influenced by the same guys -- this (their influencing Anderson) taking place when Hancock was still in maybe seventh or eighth grade, if that. Thus, while meaningful independent Hancock encounters with the music of Farnon and Riddle might have been possible, the likelihood is that Anderson was the filter.

Well, it's not like Nelson Riddle was an unknown quantity in 1960 or thereabouts. Unavoidable would be more like it. Farnon, I don't know..I've had to look long and hard to find really good stuff by him from the 50s that's readily available, but I do remember one interview with Herbie where he cited a specific album, something Farnon had done for a singer, I forget who, well-known, though. Tony Bennett, maybe? Does that sound right?

Of course, maybe Chris Anderson pulled his coattails to it all, but if the implication is that Herbie never really checked out Riddle and/or Farnon independently and/or analytically but instead just got it all from Chis Anderson, I don't think that's necessarily fair or accurate. This is a guy who's always been "naturally inquisitive" from Day One, or so it seems.

[Mark Stryker]

Don't forget Clare Fischer. In the Los Angeles Times' obituary, Hancock is quoted: "Clare Fischer was a major influence on my harmonic concept," Herbie Hancock said in a statement on Fischer's website. Hancock credited Fischer's arrangements for the 1950s vocal group the Hi-Lo's with significantly influencing his 1968 recording "Speak Like a Child."

Larry: Thanks for the source detail above.

Edited by Mark Stryker, 11 April 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[JSngry]

Speaking of naturally curious, it was only in the last year that I came across this one from 1974's Dedication, a solo album only released in Japan. I heard it on a house/hip-hop/whatever mix that was on the internets (there are, likely, millions of these), and didn't bother looking at the tracklist until later. I thought it was some brand-new thing that was exponentially raising the bar as far as improvising with loops and drum machines and sampling and post-production and all that...imagine my surprise when it turns out that it was all recorded in real-time with the backing being not a drum machine, but an ARP that Herbie set up to do this and then just let it run while he improvised over it.



Hell, in 1974, Headhunters was still fresh, and Thrust was, what, a year away, more or less? In a way, this is an extension of "Rain Dance" from Sextant, but in other ways, it's a whole 'nother thing. Years ahead of its time, literally.

[JSngry]

Don't forget Clare Fischer. In the Los Angeles Times' obituary, Hancock is quoted: "Clare Fischer was a major influence on my harmonic concept," Herbie Hancock said in a statement on Fischer's website. Hancock credited Fischer's arrangements for the 1950s vocal group the Hi-Lo's with significantly influencing his 1968 recording "Speak Like a Child."

Yeah, that too.

If you look hard enough, you can find some real delights in the "easy listening" records of that era. A lot of the writers were "goos soldiers", but the best of them knew the meat was, and weren't afraid to give, as one of my buddies says, "three chords to pay the bills, and one to make me happy about it". And occasionally, as with Riddle's best work, "paying the bills" does not even appear to be a consideration.

When you're playing "songs", you're always looking for new ideas about how to harmonize them. These guys had some pretty hip ones.

[Mark Stryker]

Speaking of naturally curious, it was only in the last year that I came across this one from 1974's Dedication, a solo album only released in Japan. I heard it on a house/hip-hop/whatever mix that was on the internets (there are, likely, millions of these), and didn't bother looking at the tracklist until later. I thought it was some brand-new thing that was exponentially raising the bar as far as improvising with loops and drum machines and sampling and post-production and all that...imagine my surprise when it turns out that it was all recorded in real-time with the backing being not a drum machine, but an ARP that Herbie set up to do this and then just let it run while he improvised over it.



Hell, in 1974, Headhunters was still fresh, and Thrust was, what, a year away, more or less? In a way, this is an extension of "Rain Dance" from Sextant, but in other ways, it's a whole 'nother thing. Years ahead of its time, literally.

Wow, this was completely new to me! Looks like you can get it as a download at 99 cents per track. Four bucks for the whole thing. I'm there. Thanks for posting.

Coda: Hmm. Amazon has the four tracks for 99 cents each but the entire album for $5.99. What's that about?

Edited by Mark Stryker, 11 April 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[Larry Kart]

As well as Robert Farnon & Nelson Riddle.

Yes, and Chris Anderson said he was influenced by the same guys -- this (their influencing Anderson) taking place when Hancock was still in maybe seventh or eighth grade, if that. Thus, while meaningful independent Hancock encounters with the music of Farnon and Riddle might have been possible, the likelihood is that Anderson was the filter.

Well, it's not like Nelson Riddle was an unknown quantity in 1960 or thereabouts. Unavoidable would be more like it. Farnon, I don't know..I've had to look long and hard to find really good stuff by him from the 50s that's readily available, but I do remember one interview with Herbie where he cited a specific album, something Farnon had done for a singer, I forget who, well-known, though. Tony Bennett, maybe? Does that sound right?

Of course, maybe Chris Anderson pulled his coattails to it all, but if the implication is that Herbie never really checked out Riddle and/or Farnon independently and/or analytically but instead just got it all from Chis Anderson, I don't think that's necessarily fair or accurate. This is a guy who's always been "naturally inquisitive" from Day One, or so it seems.

Point is that Chris Anderson was an acknowledged early mentor of Hancock (were not talking 1960 but maybe 1953-5, when Herbie was age 13-15 and Anderson was house pianist at the Beehive) with a stated fondness for those guys that was quite evident in his own music. I'm not saying that the "naturally inquisitive" Herbie got it all by way of Anderson but that Anderson's example was a pretty likely stimulus/conduit for him.

[Mark Stryker]

Herbie did tell me once in an interview that he, Chris Anderson and (I think) Willie Pickens all used to practice together. They would trade-off playing ballads, each playing a chorus and reharmonizing like demons, learning from each other and exploring together.

Edited by Mark Stryker, 11 April 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[.:.impossible]

Thanks for the heads up on Dedication!

[Rooster_Ties]

What of Herbie's "Gil Evans" period?

Practically all of "Speak Like a Child", most (maybe even all?) of "The Prisoner", plus a handful of tracks from "Fat Albert Rotunda" (at the very least "Tell Me a Bedtime Story"), and maybe "Joanna's Theme" from the "Death Wish" soundtrack.

Any crime in that?

[marcello]

Speaking of naturally curious, it was only in the last year that I came across this one from 1974's Dedication, a solo album only released in Japan. I heard it on a house/hip-hop/whatever mix that was on the internets (there are, likely, millions of these), and didn't bother looking at the tracklist until later. I thought it was some brand-new thing that was exponentially raising the bar as far as improvising with loops and drum machines and sampling and post-production and all that...imagine my surprise when it turns out that it was all recorded in real-time with the backing being not a drum machine, but an ARP that Herbie set up to do this and then just let it run while he improvised over it.

I have that one on vinyl. One side is acoustic, the other is electronic.



Herbie Hancock - Dedication

Herbie Hancock (p, el-p, syn)
"Koseinenkin Hall", Tokyo, Japan, July 29, 1974

Maiden Voyage
Dolphin Dance
Nobu
Cantaloupe Island

* CBS/Sony (J) SOPM 165, 25AP 562

Edited by marcello, 11 April 2012 - 10:03 PM.

[JSngry]

What of Herbie's "Gil Evans" period?

Another freely admitted influence.

[AllenLowe]

Speak Like A Child is such a DUMB title that personally I could never listen to it. Might be fine as music, but just imagine if Joyce had called his book "Frank." No one would read it. A true failure, on Herbie's part, of the intellect.

and Headhunters, forget it. Tried it, gave up. Went the way of all those CTI's they used to play constantly at that record store I worked at when I was much younger (though it came later, makes no difference).

and the music Herbie did for the movie Round Midnite was just excrement, really was.

that stuff makes Hot Dog look like a masterpiece. And bring back the varitone!

Edited by AllenLowe, 12 April 2012 - 05:36 AM.

[crisp]

If you look hard enough, you can find some real delights in the "easy listening" records of that era. A lot of the writers were "goos soldiers", but the best of them knew the meat was, and weren't afraid to give, as one of my buddies says, "three chords to pay the bills, and one to make me happy about it". And occasionally, as with Riddle's best work, "paying the bills" does not even appear to be a consideration.

When you're playing "songs", you're always looking for new ideas about how to harmonize them. These guys had some pretty hip ones.

Well said. I hate the disparaging and misleading term "easy listening" and appreciate your putting it in quotes. I prefer to say "orchestral pop" or "instrumental pop" depending on whether it's strings or not.

As for Farnon, Vocalion has put out a number of his albums over recent years. The latest reissues were this one and this one.

I think Tony Bennett recorded three albums with Farnon: With Love, Snowfall and Spotlight On Tony Bennett.

[freelancer]

Speak Like A Child is such a DUMB title that personally I could never listen to it. Might be fine as music, but just imagine if Joyce had called his book "Frank." No one would read it. A true failure, on Herbie's part, of the intellect.

and Headhunters, forget it. Tried it, gave up. Went the way of all those CTI's they used to play constantly at that record store I worked at when I was much younger (though it came later, makes no difference).

and the music Herbie did for the movie Round Midnite was just excrement, really was.

that stuff makes Hot Dog look like a masterpiece. And bring back the varitone!

Nobody on CTI was occupying a progressive or conceptual space in the public's mind. Hancock however, was always considered a 'progressive' musician, especially by those with more of a foot in the rock camp, even up to his involvement with Laswell.
Is this what your beef is? That he was essentially a conservative musician, who should not be afforded any more privileged status than the more blatantly commercial CTI side of Fusion.
The 'title' Speak Like A Child, reflects the 'Picasso syndrome', that plagued art and music still caught up in Modernist concepts. Ornette was also responsible for this. The music was ahead of the words and concepts, and this reflects the sometimes embarrassing titles and texts used by some musicians (and labels) to represent and frame the music - when it wasn't being marketed to only a Soul Jazz audience. Hancock was not alone in this, and probably didn't spend as much time thinking through the conceptualisation of his words.
Not as much as Joyce anyway

Edited by freelancer, 12 April 2012 - 06:45 AM.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Speak Like A Child is such a DUMB title

No, dumb is Elton's "Captain Fantastic & the Brown Dirt Cowboy"

[freelancer]

Speak Like A Child is such a DUMB title

No, dumb is Elton's "Captain Fantastic & the Brown Dirt Cowboy"

From the mouth of babes

[Mark Stryker]

Speak Like A Child is such a DUMB title that personally I could never listen to it. Might be fine as music, but just imagine if Joyce had called his book "Frank." No one would read it. A true failure, on Herbie's part, of the intellect.

and Headhunters, forget it. Tried it, gave up. Went the way of all those CTI's they used to play constantly at that record store I worked at when I was much younger (though it came later, makes no difference).

and the music Herbie did for the movie Round Midnite was just excrement, really was.

that stuff makes Hot Dog look like a masterpiece. And bring back the varitone!

Nobody on CTI was occupying a progressive or conceptual space in the public's mind. Hancock however, was always considered a 'progressive' musician, especially by those with more of a foot in the rock camp, even up to his involvement with Laswell.
Is this what your beef is? That he was essentially a conservative musician, who should not be afforded any more privileged status than the more blatantly commercial CTI side of Fusion.
The 'title' Speak Like A Child, reflects the 'Picasso syndrome', that plagued art and music still caught up in Modernist concepts. Ornette was also responsible for this. The music was ahead of the words and concepts, and this reflects the sometimes embarrassing titles and texts used by some musicians (and labels) to represent and frame the music - when it wasn't being marketed to only a Soul Jazz audience. Hancock was not alone in this, and probably didn't spend as much time thinking through the conceptualisation of his words.
Not as much as Joyce anyway

First of all, let's wish Herbie a happy 72nd birthday. (Born April 12, 1940)

Now, Allen: In the immortal words of Jeff Spicoli, "Hey, dude, what's your problem?!" Are you saying you've never listened to the record because you don't like the title or are you saying you heard it once but thought the title was so dumb you swore off it forevermore? Either way I'm having a hard time processing. Not liking the music is certainly legitimate, but using the title as a sign of intellectual failure when the music itself is remarkably sophisticated on every level seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water and all that. But, ok, we all live in the world we choose to live in. But for me, I want "Speak Like a Child" as part of my soundtrack options (not to mention the rest of the Blue Notes.) Headhunters, too, for that matter, especially the absolutely killin' live double album from Japan called "Flood." Also, all the Mwandishi band music and much of the later work too -- but certainly not all and I would of course admit he's produced a lot of schlock along the way and that, on the whole, the records in recent decades have not been as satisfying as the live performances that I've heard. But there are exceptions -- I thought the live record with Brecker and Hargrove, etc. was a great jazz recording and I thought the Joni Mitchell record was a great pop record.

But back to the title , which I rather like or at least don't see as any more problematic than, say, "Let My Children Hear Music," "A Child is Born," or "Inka Dinka Doo." Herbie is quoted in the liner notes (by Nat Hentoff) that the title came from Frank Wolff:

"It's a result of a picture that a friend of mine, David Blythewood, took. I dug it so much I brought it to Frank for use as the cover for this album. Frank said it was so evocative a photography becasue of the innocence and naivete in it. And so I started thinking about the quality of innocence when I was writing this song. Clearly the music doesn't sound too much like what's going on today -- war, riots, the stock market getting busted up. And the reason it doesn't I realized is that I'm optimistic. I believe in hope and peace and love. It's not that I'm blind to what's going on, but I feel this music is a foward look into what could be a bright future. The philosophy represented in this number, and to a large extent in the album as a while, is child-like. But not childish. By that I mean there are certain elements of childhood we lose and wish we could have back -- purity, spontaneity. When they do return to us, we're at our best. So what I'm telling the world is: Speak like a child. Thank and feel in terms of hope and the possibilitiesl of making ourselves less impure."

Ok, you might find this all a little too precious and embarassing (I don't), but even if you do, I would suggest, contrary to Freelancer above, that Herbie certainly has thought through pretty deeply the conceptualism behind the words.

Edited by Mark Stryker, 12 April 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[7/4]

some people judge a book by it's cover.


btw: happy birthday Herbie Hancock.