Jump to content

Herbie Hancock Memoir


Recommended Posts

One example--Hall could be a crazy florid comper in tandem with/alternating with piano. Though he's essentially more of a standards/straightahead player than his third stream pedigree suggests, Hall had the sort of rhythmic and harmonic mind that could have pushed into post-Miles territory pretty effectively. I guess that's what Attila Zoller is for, to an extent, but sometimes I find myself looking for that degree of harmonic interactivity on Grant's Blue Note sides--at least something that could counterbalance Larry Young or Herbie in the way that Hall does Evans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 493
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Oh no, I didn't mean to comp or not to comp was an idealogical choice, I meant that when Grant returned to recording and therefore a higher profile in music, for him to have focussed on advancing his chordal harmony (in the sense I think that fasstrack was meaning) would have been irrelevant to his intentions to play over propulsive bass lines and vamps. Yes it would have been great to hear him interact on some of those later recordings the way a keyboard master like Hancock does over funk vamps, but instead Grant just does his comping not dissimilar to the way he worked on the organ albums. I also mean that to move from being a changes player to a groove player with electric instruments was a conceptual choice for someone with Grant's hard bop legacy. And he approached it in a passionate and deliberate way, very different to older musicians like Lou Donaldson whose records had a softer edge than the vibe you get from Grant Green funk albums. That's what I mean. And I think he worked on his playing to make this vision work as well, I don't think it would have been like simply 'putting on a new jacket'.

Yes re-the Hall/Evans interactivity. Grant never had that, and I don't think many guitarists who weren't on the other side of Hendrix (ie McLaughlin, Coryell) could have interacted either in post-Miles territory (as you said earlier). The third streamy players just weren't going to work (soundwise) with electric instruments, whereas someone like Grant did have the sound, but not the Harmonic language.

One thing I would like to have heard were trio gigs Blood Ulmer did with Larry Young in the early to mid 70's. This would have been interactive for sure! And not in the McLaughlin Coryell way.

Edited by freelancer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"you often mention the white blues players as your earliest influences, while your jazz influences are more directly black perhaps. So maybe reconciling the two is your own personal journey. I don't think it's ever been a 'thing' for the players I've listened to. "

assuming this was directed at me, Freelancer, I wanted to respond - my actual earliest blue influences were a mix - first Bloomfield/Butterfield, but when I got into it more deeply, Son House, Lil Green, Broonzy, Frankie Jaxon, Muddy Waters, Wolf, basically the early Southern guys - plus T Bone Walker.

as for the jazz guys who played more to the pop side to the '60s - I tend to think that for most of them it was a dip in the money pool, an attempt to get a piece of the action they thought they were missing, Percy France pretty much told me this, if not in so many words. He preferred more straight ahead things. So did Sammy Price, who played on a lot of '50s semi-rock and roll things and then went back to the older Texas/jazz thing. I don't know about Willis Jackson, but he could still blow straight ahead when I played with him in the '70s, and he was a mean s.o.b. anyway, so I wasn't about to discuss it with him.

the problem to me in all of this, from Lou Donaldson to Herbie, is that the jazz guys always sound over-qualified when they try to go down home. Same with a lot of contemporary players. Once again, I will just say to check out my group's version of Bull Connor on my web site - this was a very specific attempt by me to get a grip on the more basic side of the blues, and my guitarist, Ray Suhy, whom nobody knows but who is one of the best, nailed in on slide. It's on this page: http://www.allenlowe...mpiricle-truth/

more funky than a barrel of Headhunters.

Edited by AllenLowe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speak Like A Child is such a DUMB title that personally I could never listen to it.

1 Corinthians 13

American King James Version

11When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

cool.gif

Edited by bluenoter
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't sell Wes short as a 'blues-hard bopper (hard bop: what a bullshit, jazz writer word. No musician in his right mind talks like that. I'm telling you right, trust me). But Wes had the blues as plasma-true dat-and he was of the generation to know certain Bird tunes, etc., but the biggest part of his genius to me went beyond guitar (where he felt his skills were limited and felt intimidated beyond rationality by 'schooled' players) and even jazz. It was a humanity-a feeling for people that made his playing so beloved. It was easy to put him with strings and brass so he could sell and reach-and live w/his family like a human being. The minute he did, naturally, the jive-ass, no playing writers came out of the walls like the rats and roaches they are to highmindly tell him and us what a sellout Wes was. Nothing ever changes, and jealous buffoons w/suspect writing ability and none at music are still at it-and some people are dumb enough to read such tripe. At least they still can READ, I give 'em that...

Edited by fasstrack
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pt. 2: I think the difference between Wes and Grant maybe is Wes seemed bugged by his limitations-meaning lack of formal musical training-and I think cared enough to want to study-if he could ever get off the 'plantation'.I think he felt trapped and maybe embarrassed by the last commercial LPs, which were pretty cheesy compared to the early ones. I remember him saying 'you know, I don't HAVE to play'. I took that to mean 'if the shit gets (stays) that aggravating I'll go home to my life and y'all can have it'. I wish he did-might have added years to his life. Grant I think just wanted to work and stay high. He seemed to shrug off his limitations and lack of progress in his playing. Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't know the cat. Seems that way, though. Thanks for mentioning Atilla, who I DID know. Everyone loved him. His malapropisms alone kept everyone in stiches. Very unique player. We played at his crib and he heard me in different situations including a tribute to him. But he was gone before I realized HOW good..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess there's a difference between punching in some 3-note chords behind organ (which definitely takes skill) and going the distance to be a full-fledged accompanist. The great John Collins, Mundell Lowe, Jim Hall, the MD for Julie London-don't know the name-these are outstanding accompanists on guitar, and it's just about a lost art. Wes, Jimmy, Django, Christian-the great soloists-I say let 'em be. They did enough and then some. Nobody can do everything.

Edited by fasstrack
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess there's a difference between punching in some 3-note chords behind organ (which definitely takes skill) and going the distance to be a full-fledged accopaninist. The great John Collins, Mundell Lowe, Jim Hall, the MD for Julie London-don't know the name-these are outstanding accompanists on guitar, and it's just about a lost art. Wes, Jimmy, Django, Christian-the great soloists-I say let 'em be. They did enough and then some. Nobody can do everything.

Sure, there's a difference in kind but not necessarily in quality/effectiveness/contextual fit. In fact, I can't imagine John Collins, Mundell Lowe, Jim Hall, etc. playing as effectively behind Willette as Green does. Barry Galbraith anyone? Billy Bauer? Let a thousand flowers bloom, as we/they used to day in the '60s. Or was it the Cultural Revolution when they said that, just before they sent you off to the countryside to be re-educated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It goes a little deeper, Larry, I think-and this time, glory be, sociology is part of it. It's how you came up-the needs of the gig. Like guys that went through the chittlin circuit-b/c that's what was available, sink or swim-developed a different skill set as accompanists and general than their peers playing the hotels and lounges behind blonde singers with dainty white gloves and Beehive dos. The lucky ones played 4 on the floor in big bands-the best foundation of all. Like Chris Anderson put it 'you did what you had to to survive, and thats a fact'. Someone had asked him about blues gigs. And no, not Barney. I meant the guy featured prominently in intros etc. on Easy Street. She sang Soon it's Gonna Rain. He's wonderful. Ditto the guy on Bill Black's one recording. High-grade marble, these gents. Larry, I'm a major-league dingus for not mentioning Barry Galbraith. He was IMO the best musician to pick up a guitar. My teacher too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

btw that Willette/Green cut is the real thing. As someone once said, I may not know what is authenic, but I know what is inauthentic.

and by the way, one of the reasons a lot of those older guys had so much soul is TUBES, No kidding, you can't get there the same way with solid state.

and let's not forget Joe Puma, who played the most beautiful thing I ever heard, at Bill Evans' funeral.

Edited by AllenLowe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Puma took one of the most beautiful solos on "Body and Soul" changes I've ever heard, on a duo album with Chuck Wayne (who plays his ass off there too), originally on the Choice label:

http://www.amazon.com/Interactions-Chuck-Wayne/dp/B006I01KFA

Not the track I was thinking of but pretty impressive IMO (Wayne I believe is playing the lower-register "thrumming" figures early on; from there it's up to you):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEanhqHKkuk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joe was the swinger of the 2. And always in the shadow of Chuck (who he took to calling Chuckles, then Knuckles) and his chops. Chuck was one of the greatest ever on the instrument but a chip on his shoulder made him dig his cognac to the point of keeping time an impossibility. I think the popularity of Benson and Martino compared to them in the 70s made those guys pretty goddamn grouchy. So, brilliantly, they hooked up and turned on/took it out on each other! Puma was the swinger though, and an ace accompanist. Rest their souls (maladjusted knuckleheads-get outta here, I love yiz!)

Joe was the swinger of the 2. And always in the shadow of Chuck (who he took to calling Chuckles, then Knuckles) and his chops. Chuck was one of the greatest ever on the instrument but a chip on his shoulder made him dig his cognac to the point of keeping time an impossibility. I think the popularity of Benson and Martino compared to them in the 70s made those guys pretty goddamn grouchy. So, brilliantly, they hooked up and turned on/took it out on each other! Puma was the swinger though, and an ace accompanist. Rest their souls (maladjusted knuckleheads-get outta here, I love yiz!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And suck your eyeballs out in an excruciatingly painful slurping action!

I gotta stop drinking this early in the day. Seeing double.

If you had the glasses his comment would jump out of the screen at you.

And suck your eyeballs out in an excruciatingly painful slurping action!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These threads are such a crazy education. Interestingly (for me, at least), this was one of the first youtube hits for Barry Galbraith:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6I00wCRYTs

That hybridzed chord/bassline accompaniment was actually one of the first "jazz things" I learned, since my first teacher took some lessons from Joe Pass (who more or less mastered this sort of contrapuntal guitar playing). The words about accompaniment being a lost art are really pointed, because these skills are more important now than ever. I had a friend chide me for playing chord melody in a free jazz context (not changes--it was a strictly improvised harmony sort of thing), which I'll take in stride--it's not "in the idiom"--but I do wonder why that sort of skill set was never really applied to a lot of styles in the wake of Coltrane. Maybe it's something about the post-McLaughlin/post-Hendrix area and the elevation of "heroic" linear soloing, but it sometimes feels like jazz guitar after 1970 really makes a big deal of avoiding the possibilities of all six strings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having read through this thread yesterday I'm baffled about several comments made here, above all Allen's rather sweeping disdain for Hancock's music and his misguided understanding of authenticity. The imbecilic refusal to listen to "Speak Like A Child" because of its 'dumb' title in some way regrettably relativizes pretty much all of your output here. Frankly I'm puzzled, as these comments are so much at odds with my impression of you as an erudite and intelligent, even intellectual, writer and musician. Also, since you seem to take offence that Herbie allegedly disavows his Tristano influence - could you please point me to a source which supports your accusation? I have yet to find an interview or article in which Hancock denies having been influenced by Tristano.

I'm also trying to get my head round Larry's comments about the 'little rhythmic and harmonic variety' in Hancock's playing. I agree that compared to most other albums with Hancock as leader or sideman from that period, "Speak Like A Child" is more polished and restrained, both in terms of sound and inventiveness. But generally I believe it is safe to say that there are VERY few jazz pianists out there who bring so much rhythmic and harmonic variety (and diversity and spontaneity!) to their playing as Herbie does/can do. The level of sophistication in rhythmic and harmonic superimposition, hypermetric irregularities, non-functional harmony, etc. - primarily developed during his stint with Miles - was pretty much unprecedented at the time, and remains highly influential for legions of new cats today.

If you have trouble agreeing to this, I can wholeheartedly recommend Keith Waters' "The Studio Recordings of the Miles Davis Quintet" and his Hancock articles in the Annual Review for Jazz Studies (1996) and the Journal of Music Theory (2005) as well as James P. Wallmann's dissertation on 'Blue Note Herbie' for detailed insights.

PS: A big thumbs up to Mark who has eloquently put into words exactly how I hear and feel about (the bulk of) Hancock's music.

PPS: Allen, from the snippets I heard "Blues and the Excremental Truth" (sorry, I couldn't resist) must be about the unfunkiest album on earth, but it sounds like a great record all the same…I mean it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...