R&B artists with jazz backgrounds

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I remember Jim Sangrey, when he got the Big John Greer CD , a couple of years ago, being surprised at how much good jazz feeling there was in the band behind Greer. No one else (in particular, not Big Beat Steve) commented on this and we sidetracked the conversation to Greer’s earlier Sittin’ in with single. So I thought I’d start a thread about the many R&B artists of the forties/early fifties who had jazz backgrounds. I think that pretty well all of the successful R&B artists of the forties learned their trade in the swing bands, many of them territory bands from the Midwest and West.

Of course, the two names that everyone knows are those of Louis Jordan and Nat Cole. But I’d like this thread to focus on less well-known people and hope that members come in with little pieces on musicians they think are worthy. In the meantime, I’m going to start with a musician who has perhaps the longest jazz pedigree of all the R&B stars.

Todd Rhodes ran a small R&B band in Detroit in the forties and fifties. His best known number is ‘Blues for the red boy’, a tune based on ‘Jeep’s blues’, which made #4 on the R&B charts in 1948 and stayed on the chart for 16 weeks. Pretty big hit. Damn fine recording, featuring the alto of Halley (Hallie or Holley, seen it spelt both ways) Dismukes, who was a Hodges nut. I’ve always thought it was a classic standard tune but, when I looked it up just now in AMG, I found that the only 3 recordings of it are ones I’ve got – Rhodes’ own version; one by Bill Black’s Combo in 1962, the B side of ‘So what’ (not the Miles Davis tune ); and one from 1990, by Hank Crawford, from the album ‘Groove master’.

You can get a good compilation of Rhodes’ work for the Sensation label on Ace’s ‘Blues for the red boy: the early Sensation recordings’ CDCHD856. Later, King took over Sensation and Rhodes’ contract and you might find a King LP called ‘Dance music that hits the spot’ which also includes a few Sensation tracks and a lot of stuff from 1951 to 1954.

Rhodes goes back a hell of a long way in jazz. He was a founder member, in 1919 or 1920, of the Synco Trio, later the Synco Novelty Orchestra, then McKinney’s Syncos, in Springfield, Ohio. That band later moved to Detroit and was renamed (the King sleeve says at Rhodes’ suggestion but the Ace notes say the change was suggested by Jean Goldkette; the Frog notes say it was one Charlie Stanton) McKinney’s Cotton Pickers. Rhodes stayed with the band until its demise in 1934. He then worked with Cecil Lee’s band, from 1936 to 1943 when Lee, a former Cotton Picker, was drafted. Rhodes began leading his own band in 1943. This band lasted until 1957, when the old style R&B was overtaken by newer soul sounds. He died in 1964, aged 64.

I have to confess that it was my liking for Rhodes’ R&B records that led me to get into McKinney’s Cotton Pickers.

Right, that’s your starter for ten. More contributions folks?

MG

[JSngry]

Joe Morris.

[Dan Gould]

He wasn't a star but I'll take any excuse to mention BUBBA BROOKS.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Quite right. Are you going to say something about him? If so, don't forget George Freeman.

MG

[paul secor]

Bill Doggett

Hank Marr

Lucky Millinder

[Adam]

Big Jay McNeely. Started out in jazz with a BeBop trio Sonny Criss & Hampton Hawes, but changed over to R&B.

[felser]

going to the 70's, George Duke, Jean Carn, Patrice Rushen

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Ain'tchall gonna say sumping 'bout these peeps?

MG

(Even if it's just who they worked with back in the day.)

[paul secor]

Johnny Otis

Comments may come later if I have time and energy.

[johnlitweiler]

Little Walter may never have played jazz but his recordings include lots of second-hand jazz choruses, from McShann, Lunceford, Mills Blue Rhythm Band, etc.

[cih]

Little Walter may never have played jazz but his recordings include lots of second-hand jazz choruses, from McShann, Lunceford, Mills Blue Rhythm Band, etc.

How about his drummer in the Four Aces - Fred Below - who started with jazz in high school, and played with Lester Young in an army band. Later he became the session drummer for Chess Records and is all over the Chicago blues, where he sat alongside Little Brother Montgomery who had a swing band in the thirties and recorded with Lee Collins as well as doing the solo piano blues stuff. He worked with people such as Buddy Petit before appearing on records with people as modern as Buddy Guy, and then took part in the revival scene (didn't Chris Albertson record him?)

Edited June 7, 2012 by cih

[BillF]

Mention of Lester reminds me that Johnny Otis played with him before becoming the "Godfather of Rhythm and Blues".

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Little Walter may never have played jazz but his recordings include lots of second-hand jazz choruses, from McShann, Lunceford, Mills Blue Rhythm Band, etc.

How about his drummer in the Four Aces - Fred Below - who started with jazz in high school, and played with Lester Young in an army band. Later he became the session drummer for Chess Records and is all over the Chicago blues, where he sat alongside Little Brother Montgomery who had a swing band in the thirties and recorded with Lee Collins as well as doing the solo piano blues stuff. He worked with people such as Buddy Petit before appearing on records with people as modern as Buddy Guy, and then took part in the revival scene (didn't Chris Albertson record him?)

Yes, he did. It's a nice album; awfully difficult to pin down as either blues or jazz.

Mention of Montgomery reminds me of Cousin Joe, the great New Orleans blues composer/singer of the forties. He started off as a jazz musician and ran his own band in NOLA in the thirties. His first (or second - can't be asked to look it up) session featured Syd Bechet.

MG

[Jim R]

Tiny Grimes, although it's not like he remained in the R&B bag.

[paul secor]

Little Walter may never have played jazz but his recordings include lots of second-hand jazz choruses, from McShann, Lunceford, Mills Blue Rhythm Band, etc.

How about his drummer in the Four Aces - Fred Below - who started with jazz in high school, and played with Lester Young in an army band. Later he became the session drummer for Chess Records and is all over the Chicago blues, where he sat alongside Little Brother Montgomery who had a swing band in the thirties and recorded with Lee Collins as well as doing the solo piano blues stuff. He worked with people such as Buddy Petit before appearing on records with people as modern as Buddy Guy, and then took part in the revival scene (didn't Chris Albertson record him?)

Yes, he did. It's a nice album; awfully difficult to pin down as either blues or jazz.

Mention of Montgomery reminds me of Cousin Joe, the great New Orleans blues composer/singer of the forties. He started off as a jazz musician and ran his own band in NOLA in the thirties. His first (or second - can't be asked to look it up) session featured Syd Bechet.

MG

Sidney Bechet is listed as playing on Cousin Joe's second recording session - July 31, 1945.

[cih]

Another drummer - one of the few things I remember about the Sandra Tooze book on Muddy Waters (it's ages since I read it) is the various gripes and grumbles of Francis Clay, Muddy's drummer with a jazz background - he had played with Jay McShann among others. But the interesting thing was that he obviously felt an outsider in blues, believed that Muddy hated him and that Howlin Wolf was persuading Muddy to drop him for not digging blues. He found it difficult to adjust to the 'simplicity' of the music and, so he claimed, to the brutality of the musicians (he said that Muddy Waters would menace him with a blackjack) - (in terms of the recordings, just looking at the discography at the back of the book & it differs so much from the recent Hip O set that I can't even be bothered to figure it out!)

Just thinking on the social thing, Albert Ayler also found it difficult playing (and drinking) with Little Walter - who criticized his playing at first - but he obviously took the positive from working with such "deep-rooted" people..

Edited June 7, 2012 by cih

[cih]

Yes, he did. It's a nice album; awfully difficult to pin down as either blues or jazz.

I love Little Brother - he has that melancholy touch. When he does New Orleansy stuff, on his own - like Buddy Bolden's Blues or Salty Dog - it has that same kind of feel to it that Jelly Roll Morton had in the Library of Congress recordings, not that they sounded alike - but just that mood of recollection

Edited June 7, 2012 by cih

[robertoart]

Another drummer - one of the few things I remember about the Sandra Tooze book on Muddy Waters (it's ages since I read it) is the various gripes and grumbles of Francis Clay, Muddy's drummer with a jazz background - he had played with Jay McShann among others. But the interesting thing was that he obviously felt an outsider in blues, believed that Muddy hated him and that Howlin Wolf was persuading Muddy to drop him for not digging blues. He found it difficult to adjust to the 'simplicity' of the music and, so he claimed, to the brutality of the musicians (he said that Muddy Waters would menace him with a blackjack) - (in terms of the recordings, just looking at the discography at the back of the book & it differs so much from the recent Hip O set that I can't even be bothered to figure it out!)

Just thinking on the social thing, Albert Ayler also found it difficult playing (and drinking) with Little Walter - who criticized his playing at first - but he obviously took the positive from working with such "deep-rooted" people..

From some of the stories I've read on here re-Jazz musicians - it obviously cuts both ways. Some of those Baby Face Willette stories sound pretty brutal.

John Patton's first wife sounds pretty brutal as well. Then again anyone that seems to recall the Hound Dog Taylor band can rarely separate the music from the in-house violence.

I've also come to understand that it was the ambition of many R&B and Blues players to move closer to Jazz.

[medjuck]

Maybe this is a jazz musician with an R&B background, but Bill Harris who played guitar for The Clovers put out some acoustic guitar records a la

Charlie Byrd in the early '60s. And does Ray Charles count?

[paul secor]

I tried to come up with an answer posting on a couple of boards, but never found anything definite - the great Chicago blues drummer, Earl Phillips, who recorded with Wolf, was the drummer on all of the classic Jimmy Reed sides, and played on a number of Vee-Jay blues sides, may have recorded with Roy Eldridge in 1946 for Decca.

Earl Phillips is listed as the drummer on the "Hi Ho Trailus Boot Whip" session. Earl Phillips is a somewhat common name, but there can't be too many drummers named Earl Phillips. If the Eldridge Phillips and the blues Phillips are the same man, he's a candidate for this thread.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Joe Liggins worked with a couple of black territory bands in the thirties: those of Cee Pee Johnson and Sammy Franklin's California Rhythm Rascals. He also was in a quartet with Illinois Jacquet in 1939!

Roy Milton's professional career started with the Ernie Fields band in the late '20s. He left Fields in 1933 and moved to California and worked with a number of other territory bands, before forming the Solid Senders.

MG

[Swinging Swede]

Lloyd Glenn comes to mind. Born in 1909, he played with a number of territory bands in the late 20s and 30s. He only recorded once during this time, namely with Don Albert's big band, which cut eight sides for Vocalion in San Antonio 1936. Glenn not only held down the piano chair but also arranged for Albert's band. Although unrecorded, Glenn also played with some other notable territory bands, such as Nat Towles and Boots And His Buddies (which would record later, but then without Glenn).

Even during his R&B heydays, Glenn somewhat surprisingly had a regular job as pianist in Kid Ory's traditional jazz band.

[paul secor]

Joe Morris.

Yep. Anyone who had a band with Johnny Griffin, Matthew Gee, Elmo Hope, and Philly Joe in it definitely qualifies.

[ValerieB]

well, updating this thread, i have to mention my very favorite male vocalist who has a strong jazz foundation, fused with R&B, Soul and Gospel: Gregory Porter. and he's one amazing songwriter too!

[JSngry]