Playing with bad bass players

[Big Wheel]

We have a "playing with bad singers" and "playing with bad drummers" thread here, so I thought this would complete the trifecta. Tonight I played a trio gig (alto, piano, bass) at some swanky function. I'd played with this guy before, and I knew he wasn't great (usually the outright refusal to play upright bass in any context is a tipoff right away), but I didn't remember him being THIS shitty. The dude could not have held a consistent tempo if his life had depended on it. We had him count off one tune, decided it was too fast, so he slowed down the countoff. Great, except when "1" arrived he was playing 20 bpm faster than the tempo he had just counted off!

To make matters worse, he would not simply walk quarter notes on a straight-ahead tune. Instead, he had to bust out the syncopated double-stops, slapping, you name it so that attaining any kind of groove would have been impossible even if he had executed all this stuff using good time--which, of course, he did not.

At least when there's a crappy singer or horn player, if the rest of the group is solid everything is cool when they aren't singing or soloing. When the bass player sucks, everything sucks. This would have been the worst gig I've ever played if it hadn't been blessedly short and the bread so damned good.

[JSngry]

A bass player is death. Simple as that.

[Harold_Z]

Good bass playing is a concept - whether it's upright or electric.. Unfortunately it's an easy ax for someone with no concept to "get by" on and these are the guys that play as you describe.

Edited January 24, 2004 by Harold_Z

[JSngry]

A bass player is death. Simple as that.

SO sorry!

That should have been "A BAD bass player is death. Simple as that."

I can not apologize enough!

[Harold_Z]

No apology necessary Jim. I knew what you meant and I know you are not infected with the socialy pathological disease of BASSISM.

[Upright Bill]

A bass player is death. Simple as that.

SO sorry!

That should have been "A BAD bass player is death. Simple as that."

I can not apologize enough!

I audibly gasped when I read your original post.

A wanker is a wanker reguardless of the instrument.

However, too many poor musicians become really bad bassists because they think bass must be easy, after all "it only has four strings and you only play one at a time." They never really learn the bass' function. It takes a different mindset to want to be a sideman.

[fasstrack]

Well, 'a bass player is death' can be true----'cause the suckers cancel on you a lot! Ha!

Yeah, it's murder when the fuckup is in the rhythm section. As was pointed out, you can bring along a bad singer or single note player. You can try to establish the time or hold someone back (or push them forward) by simply indicating it, but if someone won't listen all you get are ulcers. Also, unfortunately, overplaying goes together with rushing because nervous players do both.

Sometimes if you feel out the person and they are cool and can take constructive criticism you can have a talk on break. Yelling at someone is no good and only hurts and creates resentment. But talking should be doable with reasonable people when it's to help the gig. I remember one time I was playing a gig and the bass player actually had to leave before the job ended. The drummer was bit of a nervous player who picked up tempos and played a lot of unnecessary things around the drums like triplets that weren't called for by the music. So the bass player split and since there was no piano I was playing bass on the guitar with chords. But this drummer didn't change his playing to the new situation, like a seasoned cat would. Left a big hole. Everything was top-heavy, no bottom to speak of. Just loud, rushy triplets from the drum chair. So I asked him politely if he wouldn't mind playing some simple time on the ride cymbal to work with me and center the thing. He did seem hurt, but he adjusted and it worked out OK. Sometimes you can straighten someone out the way you've been straightened out by better players than you when you're the one fucking up.

[JSngry]

Sorry Bill. I gasped too when I went back and read it myself!

I've seen myriad situations where a strong bass player carries a weak drummer, but very, VERY few where ANYBODY carries a weak bass player. The Philly Joe/Alby Cullaz thing on THE FLIP is the exception that proves the rule.

99.99% of the time, when the bottom ain't right, forget it.

[fasstrack]

. The Philly Joe/Alby Cullaz thing on THE FLIP is the exception that proves the rule.

99.99% of  the time, when the bottom ain't right, forget it.

What's a Alby Cullaz? Never heard of "The Flip". Whazzat?

[Jim Alfredson]

So what's worse... a bad drummer or a bad bassist?

[JSngry]

. The Philly Joe/Alby Cullaz thing on THE FLIP is the exception that proves the rule.

99.99% of  the time, when the bottom ain't right, forget it.

What's a Alby Cullaz? Never heard of "The Flip". Whazzat?

Mobley BN side done in Paris, late 60s. Killer front line, so-so pianist, Philly Joe, and Alby Cullaz holding the bass whilst playing notes on it, if you get my drift. Philly saves the day.

[JSngry]

So what's worse... a bad drummer or a bad bassist?

It depends on how much better the bassist is than the drummer is bad. But as a rule, a strong bassist can carry a wek drummer in a way that the opposite can not occur. But if they both exist in relative stages of suckdom...well...

I'd still say the bad bassist is worse. The omnidirectional penetrational tendencies of the lower frequencies mean you can hear AND feel his crappiness, whereas the bad drummer you can mostly just hear, which is bad enough.

[Harold_Z]

I did a jazz gig years ago with a VERY strong Newark Tenor player. The leader on the gig was the drummer - and he was weak. The pianist ...well...relatively "OK" changes but bad time. The Tenor player and I locked during his solos and we kept the time happening. At one time the Tenor player walked over to me during a tune and said in my ear "I hear you MF. KEEP that shit happenin' ". (He was a cat that when he spoke you heard a lot of MFs and SHITs.) This drummer didn't have a bad concept - just didn't have the chops to play what he heard and the time was erratic.

Not to long ago I did a gig with a drummer that played so badly I broke a rule I had set for myself. The rule was not be a prick to a bad player. My reasoning was that bad vibes would only make a bad situation worse. Well..this guy played so badly that my theory went totally out the window. I was a seething volcano of bad vibes. I couldn't speak to the guy...I couldn't even look at him. I wanted to really verbally MAUL him..AND I'm not really that kind of guy. Each break I headed for the far end of the bar. I said not one word to this guy all night. I went to the band leader (lame ass) and said "Pay the guy and send him home. We can do this a lot better with NO drums." No dice. He's worried that the club owner will complain about being short a piece. NOTHING -NO AMOUNT OF STRONG PLAYING- NOTHING could save this situation because this drummer couldn't even listen. I mean if you have NO chops at all and just play the minimum in time...OK...we can get through the gig...but if there is not even the slightest concept of time WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING BEHIND A DRUM SET!!!

AHHHH...I feel so much better....

[JSngry]

Too bad nobody "stole" his sticks and stick bag on one of the breaks...

[Upright Bill]

So what's worse... a bad drummer or a bad bassist?

Speaking as a bassist.... It depends on the problem. What I hate, and I think this is the most common problem with bad rhythm section players, is the guy that forgets his job. I see many bassists, realizing they are in trouble, try to remedy the situation by overplaying. Worse yet is the guy that needs to show off his chops. A good bassist is invisible (within the mix) until he stops playing.

My job as a bassist is to make you sound good.

[fasstrack]

Bad bass player might be worse---though it's neck-in-neck for the lamest music-killer acievement awards.

Bad drummers can bang all all the possiblity of music into a jerry-built coffin of cacophony (hey---that's not bad, alliteration and all!) and be pushy and leading without being 'asked' (by what's going on in the music), play busy or rush or drag. But they can't also screw up the harmony (except metaphorically speaking). Bass players overplaying and playing wrong chords or bad time---the geometric possibilities for ruining an evening are limitless.

But whatever.

[SGUD missile]

I gotta chime in with the "bad bass player" ( AKA "Ropes" ) can be overcome by a drummer with a good sense of time and concentration, but the end result isn't alway gonna be pretty .

During my years accompanying singers (and on budgets that only permitted carrying a pianist and a drummer), I was forced to play with some of the WORST ROTTENEST ANTIMUSCAL dorks in the entire country bar none ..including ones with adhesive tape on the neck with the names of the notes in each position and the ones that would sorta jump up and down holding the neck loosley omitting a toneless ( and usually totally arhythmmic ) " FLUB/FLUB/FLUB/FLUB" etc.

oh momma ..you get the picture ..

as a matter of fact, on the occasions when we DID have a good to excellent bass player, it usually took me a couple days to settle back and play in an actually musical fasion again ..

also ..I could go to the crib after the gig without the headache and stiff neck for a change ..

..until the next "Ropes" came along

[Harold_Z]

OK ... It's a toss up ...YES...if the drummer has absolute concentration and can keep things straight through a barrage of wrong notes and bad time he can dominate the situation, but so can a good bassist with equal concentration overcome the drummer (if he can muster the necesary volume and energy to cut through the muck)....and then FOR HOW LONG?

All night?

I know after awhile I'm scratching my balls and thinking about the next taste, and eyeing the chick on the 3rd barstool.

Awhile back in life I noticed whenever I went to see guys play, if there was a terrible player, he had all my attention.

"What the hell is this guy doin?"

"A little late that time BOZO"

"Why doesn't somebody SHOOT this MF?"

In short..I came to believe a band sounded as good as it's weakest player.

Edited January 25, 2004 by Harold_Z

[Rimshot]

I think people are actually born with the gift. I just came back from a session this afternoon where we were rehearsing a few pieces thet we'll be recording in a couple of weeks. The bass player is a young woman that I know mostly as a percussionist and we've played together a lot in a West African style group. I knew that she was a bass player and on the strength of my other interactions with her, I asked her to sit in on this session. She was almost apologetic about her limited experience

playing bass and she really shouldn't be apologetic. Quite the reverse.. One time through she played the music straight, second time, she improvised a bit and third time she made it her's. Solid!

Sax player on alto was "killer" but I expected that, he's been around quite a while, and has "serious" chops.

The thing that drives me out of my mind, is singers that have no conception of time. They can't come in on the right beat and without a word of warning will suddenly decide to sustain a note for an insane amount of time and expect to just come back on their idea of where they want 1 to be.

Or else they decide to suddenly start to modulate into another key that just doesn't work and then blame the rest of the musicians for screwing up.

I'm a drummer. Drummers are all music gods. We never screw up.

Edited January 26, 2004 by Rimshot

[SGUD missile]

      The thing that drives me out of my mind, is singers that have no conception of time. They can't come in on the right beat and without a word of warning will suddenly decide to sustain a note for an insane amount of time and expect to just come back on their idea of where they want 1 to be.

Or else they decide to suddenly start to modulate into another key that just doesn't work and then blame the rest of the musicians for screwing up.

      I'm a drummer. Drummers are all music gods. We never screw up.

This is a true story:

Many Years ago, I was sentenced to play for two weeks with that god of swing, Eddie Fisher ..

He had two conductors: the orch guy was named Eddie Ballatine ( at the first rehearsal, he told me " forget the hi-hat ..and be prepared to add or subtract beats instantly ) Eddie was cool ..

the OTHER conductor ..was for Fisher ..he stood in the wings and literally conducted EACK DAMN SYLLABLE! ..without him , Mr. Liz Taylor not only wouldnt have know when to come in , HE WOULDN'T KNOW HOW LONG THE LYRICS WERE!! ..even with all that, we were continually adding and dropping beats for the whole bloody gig!

aarrrrgh!!

another true story : on a gig one time, one of the many "Ropes"

type players sez to me before a show:

"well ..whaddaya want? time ..or changes ? "

Edited January 26, 2004 by SGUD missile

[Harold_Z]

:

"well ..whaddaya want? time ..or changes ? "

I CAN'T READ... BUT I HAVE BAD EAR.

[Robert J]

A good bassist is so important. After some bad experiences (I do duos and trios for upscale events as well as my soloing) I made a point of phoning up 10-12 musicians I know in town, from pianists, to horns, to drummers and asked them for their top 5. I spent a bit of time making notes: style, electric or upright, last few gigs played, reliability, personality, bad drunks, etc. I whittled it down to 10 (due to overlap) in a database with notes given by these other guys. It was some work, but in the end I know who to call on. Almost like a dating service I guess.

[Jim Alfredson]

Ok, here's my bad bass player story (limited to my jazz experiences... I won't even touch the other part of my musical life... playing in blues/R&B bar bands).

When I was in the jazz program at Michigan State the instructor refused to let me play organ, even though they had a nice 1964 Hammond B3 with Leslie sitting in the room. He wanted me to play piano. I am not a pianist. Never have been, probably never will be. I love piano, but it ain't my thing. Asking an organist to play piano is like saying, "Oh, you're a trombonist? Here's a trumpet!" What, they both have a similair mouthpiece, right?!

Anyway, the bassist he puts in my combo is this jackhole from the classical music department. The guy walks around like he's the shit and hands out dorky business cards to everyone that exclaim he's not only a bassist, but a composer and lyricist as well (oh brother!).

This mofo was so sad. He could not even play a simple I-IV-V blues without reading the notes off the page. And even then he fucked them up. And forget about time. He swung like a frozen squirrel. And then to go from simple blues into a tune that actually had changes... forget about it.

It was even more frustrating to me, as an organist, because I had spent the last 5 years learning how to create a good bass line on the organ... and there was that nice 1964 Hammond B3 sitting in the corner, beckoning me... PLAY ME!!!

Thankfully, the next semester the instrutor finally gave in and let me be in my own organ combo with Joe. And the rest is history!!!

[Joe G]

This bassist that Jim's talking about was once informed by Rodney Whitaker (in front of the entire class, I might add) that, "If this were a military organization, and it was your turn on watch, we'd all be dead." I did feel kind of bad for the guy at that moment. But it didn't seem to humble him at all. He still handed out those ridiculous business cards.

[randissimo]

Ok, here's my bad bass player story (limited to my jazz experiences... I won't even touch the other part of my musical life... playing in blues/R&B bar bands).

When I was in the jazz program at Michigan State the instructor refused to let me play organ, even though they had a nice 1964 Hammond B3 with Leslie sitting in the room. He wanted me to play piano. I am not a pianist. Never have been, probably never will be. I love piano, but it ain't my thing. Asking an organist to play piano is like saying, "Oh, you're a trombonist? Here's a trumpet!" What, they both have a similair mouthpiece, right?!

Anyway, the bassist he puts in my combo is this jackhole from the classical music department. The guy walks around like he's the shit and hands out dorky business cards to everyone that exclaim he's not only a bassist, but a composer and lyricist as well (oh brother!).

This mofo was so sad. He could not even play a simple I-IV-V blues without reading the notes off the page. And even then he fucked them up. And forget about time. He swung like a frozen squirrel. And then to go from simple blues into a tune that actually had changes... forget about it.

It was even more frustrating to me, as an organist, because I had spent the last 5 years learning how to create a good bass line on the organ... and there was that nice 1964 Hammond B3 sitting in the corner, beckoning me... PLAY ME!!!

Thankfully, the next semester the instrutor finally gave in and let me be in my own organ combo with Joe. And the rest is history!!!

I know this bass player.. I've met him several times over the years in different shapes, sizes, situations, and colors.. The bass players who drive me mad are the ones who play time like a "runaway train"..