Louis Armstrong: Complete Okeh, Columbia, and Victor 1925-1933

[king ubu]

Is everybody (Allen and J.A.W.) talking of the Sony Hot Fives and Hot Sevens set?

Wasn't that big, just four discs ...

Big or not, you guessed it.

Sorry, I just was afraid I might have missed some box (is that some kind of disease, fear of having missed a jazz box set? )

[J.A.W.]

1) the best sound to me is still that old gatefold LP; can't remember the exact name -

2) we'll know if it's a new remaster by listening to Weatherbird; in the last issue, it had an almost bizarrely obvious CEDAR glitch near the beginning, a real obvious piece of distortion.

Allen,

Could you describe the distortion you're hearing and at how much time into "Weatherbird"?

Edited September 30, 2012 by J.A.W.

[romualdo]

Anyone got the Armstrong or Ellington sets yet?

Any further info on SQ/mastering/remastering

Import CDs have both Armstrong & Ellington sets at a good price

Armstrong @ $36.29 with the current 10% discount promo, takes this down to $32.66

Ellington @ $34.09 with the current 10% discount promo, takes this down to $30.68

I've ordered the Ellington but a bit hesitant on the Armstrong - as the discs follow the 80's Sony individual CD's tracklists, I'm concerned they will be using the old disc masters

The 2000 remastered 4CD set contains quite a few titles not here (I've got this plus the remastered 4CD RCA set) - 6 of the 10 discs

[fent99]

You know I don't have any of these. I had a couple of cheap compialtions but got rid of them years ago and haven't listened since. Its a big gap in what I listen to. Which issue should I start with? Not so bothered about completeness so the recent Sony one?

[jazzbo]

I've ordered the Ellington but a bit hesitant on the Armstrong - as the discs follow the 80's Sony individual CD's tracklists, I'm concerned they will be using the old disc masters

The 2000 remastered 4CD set contains quite a few titles not here (I've got this plus the remastered 4CD RCA set) - 6 of the 10 discs

According to a post or two on another board the sound is not good on the Armstrong, leading me to believe that the earlier 7 volume cd transfers were used.

You know I don't have any of these. I had a couple of cheap compialtions but got rid of them years ago and haven't listened since. Its a big gap in what I listen to. Which issue should I start with? Not so bothered about completeness so the recent Sony one?

I'm different than many in that I really like the Columbia four cd Hot Five and Sevens set a bit more than the JSP four cd set, but either should be a great purchase for that material. There is another two cd set on JSP of bigger ensemble material. Those two sets will give you a lot of great material in great sound.

[jazzbo]

It's not that simple as you can see from these links.

http://www.amazon.com/Band-Sides-1930-1932-Louis-Armstrong/dp/B00187PN38

http://www.amazon.com/Vol-5-Louis-New-York/dp/B000002748/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1352388422&sr=8-3&keywords=Louis+Armstrong+Vol.+5

http://www.amazon.com/Vol-6-St-Louis-Blues/dp/B0000027GK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1352388453&sr=1-1&keywords=Louis+Armstrong+Vol.+6

http://www.amazon.com/Louis-Armstrong-Youre-Drivin-Crazy/dp/B00000286E/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1352388631&sr=1-6&keywords=Louis+Armstrong+Vol.+7+Columbia

[neveronfriday]

I'm on here again lately, reading along.

This is what I posted on another board:

"I don't know if I'm allowed to say bull***** here, but both the Armstrong and Bessie Smith boxes are. It's the third or fourth time I got shafted by this Sony/Columbia/B.s. outfit (remember the screwed-up Miles Davis shoebox, glue, scratches, tears, errors and all?) and I'd love to shove both boxes up some executive's rear end.

Sound sucks on both (Armstrong and B. Smith) ... and I would have loved to have improved versions, especially since my other Armstrong Hot boxed set had black cardboard color all over the playing surface when I bought it ages ago and is completely unplayable.

At the moment I'm ready to shoot whoever screwed this up, yet again.

Repackaging old stuff and falsely advertising (maybe it was a copy&paste error, no idea) the sets to have been newly remastered by someone I respect, is ...

All of this music is really important, excellent, breathtaking ... and they treat it like some everyday commodity.

Pi**es me off to no end."

Just don't get either box.

You're wasting your money*.

* unless ... like me ... you know that every subsequent reissue will probably be as bad as this one. Both boxes contain some of the most important music of the 20th century and one should have at least some version of it ... for the Bessie Smith, I'll just start buying into the Frog reissues. People whose opinion I respect have recommended them to no end (despite the butt-ugly covers).

Edited November 9, 2012 by neveronfriday

[jazzbo]

Good to see you here again sir. Yes, I would be very surprised if you are disappointed with the Frogs.

[Fer Urbina]

Mr. Riccardi (Ricko) has asked me to post some of his comments on Facebook, here (his internet connection is very poor at the moment due to electricity blackouts). When everything's back to normal, he'll A/B the box with other issues of the same music in his blog, and will be back on this forum.

But for the time being, I've collated this from a dialogue with several FB friends:

Q: Is it worth replacing Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, the original Columbia CD Vols 1-???, the JSP Hot 5s/7s etc with this set? For those of us who have been gathering these things for a long time, can you make a case for this particular issue?

RR: I'm proud of my little liner note offerings but I'm going to be honest: if you have everything you mentioned, there's no need for this set. It's really aimed for those who have heard a few samplers and want to get it all, the Hot Fives, Sevens, Hines stuff, OKeh big bands, Victor recordings, etc. A lot of that 1929-1933 has been out of print in the US for much of this century so it's nice to have them back.

Having said that, I just started listening and my original fears seem to be true: every disc is a straight rip of Sony's original releases from the late 80s and early 90s. To my ears, that's not a bad thing for most of the set but just skipping around, it appears that every single one of the 1925 and 1926 Hot Fives are pitched a half-step low! That is NOT a good thing. Man, I wish I heard this set before they produced it; maybe I could have warned them! They're going to get KILLED by the audiophiles for this...

... for this new set, they skipped the 2000 transfers entirely (a little noisy but in the correct keys!) and went back to the original issues from the late 80s. The transfers are clean thanks to a lot of processing but the lack of pitch correction was embarrassing then and even worse now.

Having said that, it's really the first two discs. I think the other 8 sound great and for anyone that doesn't have this music, it's a good bargain set. Even if you have the Hot Fives but kit much else, getting the 1927-1933 material on 8 discs for $65 ain't bad.

... when life returns to normal after the move and power outages, I'll do a long blog with A-B comparisons of a handful of the Hot Fives as released over t last 20 years.

Columbia did a helluva lot of reissues in the early CD days (all those "Jazz Masterpieces" with the blue borders). Now they're just repackaging them with the same inferior sound... So they did nothing except put old discs in new sleeves.

Again, I hope people enjoy my notes and I'll recommend it to newbies but I know this set is going to make people angry...and I hope they don't take it out on me! (The new Satchmo at Symphony Hall, well, that was my baby from start to finish so any problems with that, yes, direct them to me!)

Edited November 9, 2012 by Fer Urbina

[mikeweil]

So, if sound sucks on the new box set, which is the one to get?

[jazzbo]

Mike, I really like the Columbia Fives and Sevens box, and prefer it a bit to the JSPs but the JSP set is very good and a cheap way to get that material. JSP also has a two cd set of larger ensemble material.

Chronogical Classics and Neatwork is a good way to go as well for any of this material, and though I haven't heard any of the "Complete Louis Armstrong" volumes from Fremeaux discerning ears here are very happy with them.

[J.A.W.]

So, if sound sucks on the new box set, which is the one to get?

The JSP set sounds great to my ears. It was mastered by the late John R.T. Davies. Unlike Lon I don't like the remastered Sony box from 2000, it sounds harsh/piercing to me.

[neveronfriday]

So, if sound sucks on the new box set, which is the one to get?

The JSP set sounds great to my ears. It was mastered by the late John R.T. Davies. Unlike Lon I don't like the remastered Sony box from 2000, it sounds harsh/piercing to me.

I agree with Hans.

The Sony box wasn't my kind of thing sound-wise either, and I have what, at best, can be called a mediocre system (Marantz A-class, with its added warmth and all, Dynaudio 1.8 MK II speakers) and on my system, the John R.T. Davies remasters were tons better.

But, as is often the case with these issues, YMMV.

[J.A.W.]

So, if sound sucks on the new box set, which is the one to get?

The JSP set sounds great to my ears. It was mastered by the late John R.T. Davies. Unlike Lon I don't like the remastered Sony box from 2000, it sounds harsh/piercing to me.

I agree with Hans.

The Sony box wasn't my kind of thing sound-wise either, and I have what, at best, can be called a mediocre system (Marantz A-class, with its added warmth and all, Dynaudio 1.8 MK II speakers) and on my system, the John R.T. Davies remasters were tons better.

But, as is often the case with these issues, YMMV.

I have heard the 2000 Sony box on a couple of systems, my own (Mark Levinson front end and amplification, Quad 988 electrostatic speakers) and a dynamic system, i.e. one with non-electrostatic speakers. The sound on the box is not my cup of tea.

Edited November 9, 2012 by J.A.W.

[David Ayers]

I've got the JSP but don't have the other material in any version - what should I do? The Mosaic is also in my line of sight but doesn't overlap with this at all, AFAICS.

[J.A.W.]

If the "new" box does indeed have the 1980s masterings, I'd say avoid it at all cost; the sound on the Armstrong Columbia CDs from those years was pretty bad to my ears.

I have the JSP 4CD-set with the Hot Fives and Sevens, and also the JSP 2CD-set with the 1930-1932 big-band material and the 2001 edition of the The Complete RCA Victor Recordings RCA 4CD-set with Armstrong's 1930, 1932-1933, 1946-1947 and 1956 recordings for that label - that edition sounds better than the earlier one, which is a bit too processed.

Edited November 9, 2012 by J.A.W.

[David Ayers]

I had the old Columbias and they were not good.

I'm going to study the rest on spotters and work out what I need from there.

[mikeweil]

Thanks all - I always liked Davies' remasterings a lot, so I will try to find a copy of the 4 CD JSP box. The Hot Five and Seven session are what interests me the most, so that should serve my purposes.

p.s. I ordered one ...

[Ricko]

Hi all. Many thanks to Fernando for posting some of my thoughts on this set from Facebook as I was getting back on my feet after Hurricane Sandy. I don't have much to add as the secret's out: the new Sony box is comprised of the old CDs in new sleeves. When I went to import them into iTunes, all of the original 1990s titles popped up ("Louis in New York," "Vol. 6 St. Louis Blues," "The Complete RCA Victor Recordings")...even some of the original notes popped up on songs such as "1996 Master"....ugh. This really disappointed me, and as I can see, everyone else here, too. They credit two new names with remastering and restoration, but trust me, nothing was done. I wrote the liner notes without hearing the set so I've promoted it elsewhere without having heard it since I thought it was a can't miss, but they missed.

At least on the early discs. I confess: I am not an audiophile. When I got into this music in the mid-90s, these Columbia CDs were my introduction to this music and I didn't complain back then. I also picked up the Chronological Classics discs and other subpar, sketchy efforts to fill in the gaps so sound quality has never been a make-or-break thing for me (well, I'm NOT going to buy something if I read the quality is worse than a previous issue but if the only way to hear something is in shaky sound, I still want to hear it). What I do have a problem with is pitch correction. I don't have perfect pitch but I know this music backwards and hearing every single track on the first two or three discs a half-step flat is maddening. It makes the Hot Fives and Sevens sound sluggish, which they definitely were not. Doug Benson, who has done such great work with David Sager on the King Oliver and Wolverines material for Off the Record, once wrote a review of the early Columbia issues on Amazon in which he stated, "This is a HORRID reissue. I think what CBS did was simply pull tracks from the 1950s LP reissues and filter them. For me, even worse than the bland sound is the fact that all of the recordings run a half-step flat. The original discs were recorded at nearly 82 r.p.m., but for this release they were played back at the 'standard' 78. This is a very common problem: sound engineers who are not musicians should never attempt this kind of stuff; or should at least consult a savvy musician when setting the pitch!"

So if you've never heard the Hot Fives and Sevens, do NOT start here. The JSP is definitely the way to go. It's sad but Sony made their other Hot Five attempts out-of-print to accommodate this set (my day job is as Archivist for the Louis Armstrong House Museum. We always ordered the single discs from the early 2000s but were told a few months ago that they--plus the 2000 box AND the 1994 "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" box--were all OOP). However, I will say, in this box's defense, that the sound on the 1929-1933 material never bothered me. I have the JSP "Big Bands" discs and they're great but whenever I was in the mood for those 1929-1932 OKeh recordings, sometimes I'd go JSP, sometimes I'd go Columbia, never noticing much of a difference. So I will say this: if you have the Hot Fives and Hot Sevens but don't have the 1929-1933 material in complete form, then don't write this box off so fast. The 1929-1933 recordings make up 6 discs and 6 discs for $65 (Amazon price) isn't terrible. That period is incredibly rich and if you want it all (how many times does "Indian Cradle Song" or "Little Joe" or "He's a Son of the South" get reissued?), this is a good place for that. But I don't know, those with perfect pitch and better ears might have legitimate problems with Sony's take on those discs, too.

As Fernando mentioned, once I get my life back to normal (we moved the weekend of the Hurricane and still have tons of stuff in boxes), I'll do a blog in which I'll A-B the various Hot Five and Seven releases out there so if anyone has any questions, they can head there. Til then...

Yours in Pops,

Ricky Riccardi

dippermouth.blogspot.com

[jazzbo]

Ricky, thanks for weighing in and providing this information. I feel as if I know you as you correspond with my best friend, Austin trumpeter Dave Laczko. I know your passion for this material and your knowledge of the great man Armstrong.

I agree with you that the mastering of much of this material is listenable. I have several other sources for much of this material (the Columbia Hot 5 and 7 box set, the Portrait of the Artist box set, the JSP sets, the King Jazz cds and more) and I find that the material in discs 4 through 10 in this set are fine for listening, they seem to be pictched properly as well. The material in the first three discs have problems, but many will already have this material in good sound, and hopefully in time Columbia will see the wisdom of reinstating correct copies of the Hot 5 and 7 sides, these are jazz milestones, keystones in fact.

Your liner notes are excellent. And the photos are well-chosen and reproduced. Thank you for your effort in the production of this set, and all that you do at the Armstrong home.

Edited November 10, 2012 by jazzbo

[mesfen]

Chronogical Classics and Neatwork is a good way to go as well for any of this material, and though I haven't heard any of the "Complete Louis Armstrong" volumes from Fremeaux discerning ears here are very happy with them.

I have most of the Armstrong Fremeaux series and am very pleased with these so far. They contain concerts and radio shows not available anywhere else. the sound appears to have little or no noise reduction.

[AllenLowe]

I sent this message to Ricky earlier (I don't think I am violating any confidentiality): "I am in a small minority on these, but I actually prefer those old Columbia/Armstrong CDs to the later box reissue - I find the box dry and lacking resonance (and Weatherbird has a large CEDAR glitch at the beginning) - whereas with the old CDs, if one re-eqs them and digitally pitch-corrects, can be brought to terrific life - of course one needs good eq software (I also have CEDAR) - but when I have some time I can do some A-B ing (which I also, btw, was able to do with the original Morton/BMG box that was so reviled; even Larry Gushee was impressed) "

[JETman]

I sent this message to Ricky earlier (I don't think I am violating any confidentiality): "I am in a small minority on these, but I actually prefer those old Columbia/Armstrong CDs to the later box reissue - I find the box dry and lacking resonance (and Weatherbird has a large CEDAR glitch at the beginning) - whereas with the old CDs, if one re-eqs them and digitally pitch-corrects, can be brought to terrific life - of course one needs good eq software (I also have CEDAR) - but when I have some time I can do some A-B ing (which I also, btw, was able to do with the original Morton/BMG box that was so reviled; even Larry Gushee was impressed) "

What "later box reissue" are you referring to?

[mikeweil]

Found the JSP box on my doorstep an hour ago. The sound of John R.T. Davies' remasterings is all one could wish for - perfect for me, for sure. That's all I need, as I dropped my completist attitude for most musicians. This is the Pops I need. Great recommendation. It's miraculous what sound he coaxed out of these old masters.

[AllenLowe]

the boxes I was referring to: http://www.amazon.com/Best-Hot-Five-Seven-Recordings/dp/B0026OIBK4/ref=sr_1_22?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1352713870&sr=1-22&keywords=louis+armstrong