Self-deprecating Jewish Humor: Ill Effects?

[fasstrack]

Jim: Ow, my head hurts now. Um, could we change the subject to, say, great Jewish basketball players?

[Valeria Victrix]

But hell, you can't get more than a relative handful of specialists to dig Bach these days, ya' know?

Really? I don't think so.

That is, I think it's more than "a relative handful of specialists."

Relative to the overall global population? Sure about that?

Absurd! These days, the vast majority of 'our' interests here in the 'First World' are 'niche' relative to the overall global population. Factor in China + India? How many of their inhabitants have seen Sex and the City do you think, let alone drank a Coke?

[JSngry]

Significantly more than dig Bach, I'm pretty sure!

[Chuck Nessa]

Not so sure.

[Pete C]

Factor in China + India? How many of their inhabitants have seen Sex and the City do you think, let alone drank a Coke?

I think a lot more than you think. I've been to both countries several times in the '90s, and could see it happening then, so I can only imagine what it's like now. You underestimate American cultural hegemony.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Pete C

[Valeria Victrix]

Significantly more than dig Bach, I'm pretty sure!

Absolutely of course - but you're entirely missing the point. Whether willfuly or not I'm unwilling to guess on such short acquaintance.

[Larry Kart]

Valeria -- I didn't "back down." My original remark was '[Allen] not only often sacrifices dramatic versimilitude for the momentary gag but that the gags also are typically verbal, and airlessly, "smartly" verbal at that).' [Emphasis added] My main point was the first one; my secondary point (clearly a subset of the first, signified by the word "also") was the one you said I backed down from by amplifying my primary point with an example from "Zelig." When I said that I'd need to see the early films again before I could cite chapter and verse about the secondary point, how was that backing down? Or should I say, "Hands up, I've got a gub"?

Also, I didn't say that the gags in the early films were all verbal but typically verbal.

[Valeria Victrix]

Factor in China + India? How many of their inhabitants have seen Sex and the City do you think, let alone drank a Coke?

I think a lot more than you think. I've been to both countries several times in the '90s, and could see it happening then, so I can only imagine what it's like now. You underestimate American cultural hegemony.

I imagine so, but they would have been the urbanized elites - a fifth of the population at best. You know that in China the urbanites and the countrydwellers are officially different class citizens?

As for the wider question re just how marginal an appreciation of Bach is. If we're taking the so called First World as our remit, I would say - still far more than you think. The point is that everything is relative - apart from pop culture of course - the fractured demographic, sliced into multifaceted shards, each partakes multifariously from the splendidly spread feast of the senses which is given to us few only now, for this all too brief time in history.

Dine well...

[Valeria Victrix]

Valeria -- I didn't "back down." My original remark was '[Allen] not only often sacrifices dramatic versimilitude for the momentary gag but that the gags also are typically verbal, and airlessly, "smartly" verbal at that).' [Emphasis added] My main point was the first one; my secondary point (clearly a subset of the first, signified by the word "also") was the one you said I backed down from by amplifying my primary point with an example from "Zelig." When I said that I'd need to see the early films again before I could cite chapter and verse about the secondary point, how was that backing down? Or should I say, "Hands up, I've got a gub"?

Also, I didn't say that the gags in the early films were all verbal but typically verbal.

You may - or may not! I don't know exactly, cos I can't see your paws right now - have a gub. You definitely have a certain amount of equivocation. My point throughout has been that Kehr - and through his words, as your proxy - you yourself, have been indulging in a bash at Allen's work. When I saw that many points did not hold up - e.g. many of Kehr's points are merest subjectivity. I've made my retort re The Purple Rose Of Cairo - an alternative reading which is rather closer to Allen's intention I think.

Wrt the 'verbal' vs. 'visual' issue. When you say 'typically verbal' with reference to his early films you are saying that these films are typified by verbal humour. I denied - and still deny, wholeheartedly - that smearing, coats one and all with a tarry brush generalisation. Without getting into an absurd reductionist debate about what percentage of the gags in these films come from visual as opposed to verbal gags, I put it to you that a significant amount of the humour is visual.

Also, you seem to take issue with the 'smart' nature of some of those verbal gags. I have to pause and wonder - wtf, a little. I take it you mean 'smart' as in fast and snappy. Are you channeling Cool Hand Luke's jailer, or some archetypal 19th century schoolmarm when you say that?

You realise that you're actually complimenting him on sharp material, whose impact - like that of most comedians - relies on its timing.

You've been consistently confirming that you simply don't like or enjoy Woody Allen's work. We all have the right to not enjoy somebody's work - whether a specific piece, or their entire oeuvre - but you seem to be taking it more personally than that. You're trying to prove the Woody Allen's work is objectively bad.

And I would wonder why, except for the fact that I myself have many artists, authors, musicians etc. whose work I would dread to be shut up in a room with - but you know what? I take one day at a time. One damn day at a time, and just hope like hell that I don't get involved with the wrong girl at the wrong time, or my Sundays won't be worth living.

[robertoart]

Factor in China + India? How many of their inhabitants have seen Sex and the City do you think, let alone drank a Coke?

I think a lot more than you think. I've been to both countries several times in the '90s, and could see it happening then, so I can only imagine what it's like now. You underestimate American cultural hegemony.

I imagine so, but they would have been the urbanized elites - a fifth of the population at best. You know that in China the urbanites and the countrydwellers are officially different class citizens?

As for the wider question re just how marginal an appreciation of Bach is. If we're taking the so called First World as our remit, I would say - still far more than you think. The point is that everything is relative - apart from pop culture of course - the fractured demographic, sliced into multifaceted shards, each partakes multifariously from the splendidly spread feast of the senses which is given to us few only now, for this all too brief time in history.

Dine well...

If they sell Coke at the cricket in India, then I'd say everyones had a taste. As for urbanized elites well that pretty much sums up Allen's 'complete' audience.

[Valeria Victrix]

I mean, "reaching out and connecting on the most basic levels", that's something that I'd imagine has been going on since before recorded time. But hell, you can't get more than a relative handful of specialists to dig Bach these days, ya' know?

If they sell Coke at the cricket in India, then I'd say everyones had a taste. As for urbanized elites well that pretty much sums up Allen's 'complete' audience.

That specific point wasn't about potential audiences for Allen's audiences as you can see from the foregoing.

However, given the specific socio-cultural setting of most of his films, they're definitely geared for enjoyment by the elite of the first world.

[JSngry]

You definitely have a certain amount of equivocation.

Hand tipped!

One damn day at a time, and just hope like hell that I don't get involved with the wrong girl at the wrong time, or my Sundays won't be worth living.

Unlike Woody Allen's, my experience is by no means universal, but it's always been Wednesday when shit started getting weird like that for me. Sundays you can still fuck through, Mondays you can leave, Tuesdays you can still pretend, but when Wednesdays roll around, there's always a...decision starting to foment/ferment/vomit its way to the forefront.

Make it past that Wednesday, one way or another, and it's time to warm up the tubes so you don't miss the first pitch. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Some people get their beliefs reinforced by Woody Allen movies. Me, I just use shampoo bottles.

Edited August 15, 2012 by JSngry

[Larry Kart]

[

Wrt the 'verbal' vs. 'visual' issue. When you say 'typically verbal' with reference to his early films you are saying that these films are typified by verbal humour. I denied - and still deny, wholeheartedly - that smearing, coats one and all with a tarry brush generalisation. Without getting into an absurd reductionist debate about what percentage of the gags in these films come from visual as opposed to verbal gags, I put it to you that a significant amount of the humour is visual.

Also, you seem to take issue with the 'smart' nature of some of those verbal gags. I have to pause and wonder - wtf, a little. I take it you mean 'smart' as in fast and snappy. Are you channeling Cool Hand Luke's jailer, or some archetypal 19th century schoolmarm when you say that?

You realise that you're actually complimenting him on sharp material, whose impact - like that of most comedians - relies on its timing.

I said it was "'smartly' verbal." Putting "smartly" in quotes meant that IMO the gags themselves weren't all that clever/intelligent/sharp but that Allen was more concerned with self-consciously conveying to the audience that he himself was a smart, intelligent fellow. Further, I think that one of the chief reasons for Allen's success is that he does manage to convey just that to a fair-sized portion of his core audience, who are in turn then able to congratulate/reassure themselves that they are among the world's more intelligent/clever/sharp citizens. Funny how one of Allen's chief models, Mort Sahl, had such a shrewd fix on exactly this social game and made it the center of some of his sharpest satire.

For example, one of Sahl's bits, pre-dating"Take the Money and Run" by some years, was about a bank robber who comes up against an intellectual teller in a bank in San Francisco. The robber hands the teller a note that says "act normal." The teller writes back, "define your terms."

[robertoart]

Have there ever been any children in Woody Allen's movies?

[mjzee]

There was a child in Deconstructing Harry.

[Blue Train]

Have there ever been any children in Woody Allen's movies?

Annie Hall

Radio Days (with Seth Green basically playing Woody.)

[Pete C]

If they sell Coke at the cricket in India, then I'd say everyones had a taste. As for urbanized elites well that pretty much sums up Allen's 'complete' audience.

When I first went in 1989 they didn't sell Coke at all. It was a planned economy with major import restrictions, so if you wanted cola you had to drink Campa Cola, or Limca if you prefer Sprite & 7-Up. Then they liberalized the economy and Coke was everywhere.

In Beijing, in 1994, I was forced to listen to the entire Kenny G Breathless album at the most famous Peking duck restaurant, and people were selling bootlegs of the CD on the street all over town.

[robertoart]

If they sell Coke at the cricket in India, then I'd say everyones had a taste. As for urbanized elites well that pretty much sums up Allen's 'complete' audience.

When I first went in 1989 they didn't sell Coke at all. It was a planned economy with major import restrictions, so if you wanted cola you had to drink Campa Cola, or Limca if you prefer Sprite & 7-Up. Then they liberalized the economy and Coke was everywhere.

In Beijing, in 1994, I was forced to listen to the entire Kenny G Breathless album at the most famous Peking duck restaurant, and people were selling bootlegs of the CD on the street all over town.

That's interesting to know. 'India' is very present in Australia, partly because of Cricket, and partly because we have a huge Indian demographic here. My perception from afar has changed dramatically over time, and it feels like it must now be a very urbanised vibrant country, in the cities at least. Perhaps similar to the way perception (in the West) of Japan changed dramatically after their technological lead emergence. The thought that a significant amount of India is not a first world/globalised culture (and technologically equal), seems distant.

It's harder to form perceptions of the Western presence in China from afar though, unless you have been there (which you have). It seems like the struggles people have there re-insularity, are from State pressured censorship from inside to out, rather than outside to in, if that makes sense.

[Pete C]

A lot of call centers have sprung up in the Philippines as Indian labor has gotten relatively expensive.

[robertoart]

A lot of call centers have sprung up in the Philippines as Indian labor has gotten relatively expensive.

One day there might not be anywhere to go. That's when they'll start Colonising the moon.

[Pete C]

One day there might not be anywhere to go. That's when they'll start Colonising the moon.

I think that's when the captains of industry will take to cloning an obedient worker force that can survive in a cheap, inhospitable environment.

[JSngry]

Ah, you've encountered the Texas public school system, I see.

[fasstrack]

To Freelancer's question about children in Allen's film: they may have had all the lines of stick figures, but Virgil Stockwell and his wife had kids. His charaater in Manhattan has a son ('he just started ballet lessons..'). Not to mention the cradle-robbing involved in dating Tracey. Hannah etc. is as much about kids as adults. Cliff, the filmmaker in Crimes and... has a neice he's fond of. The writer in Deconstructing... brings his kid on a long trip, behaving in most unfatherly fashion. and of course for all you jazz fans (to POOP ON...) there's Wild Man Blues co-starring a certain child bride (;

[JSngry]

. and of course for all you jazz fans (to POOP ON...)

Is Triumph Jewish?

[Larry Kart]

Triumph looks Irish to me.