JSngry Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Just finished listening. No matter how big the hype you'll hear about this release, believe it. As much as I've liked Streams & Hues over the years, those trios were not this trio, and even at that, this trio as captured here is comprised of more mature/developed players than it was when it was a regular touring group. So, yeah. Believe the hype, because this time, as occasionally happens when life is in a good mood, it's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) Just finished listening. No matter how big the hype you'll hear about this release, believe it. As much as I've liked Streams & Hues over the years, those trios were not this trio, and even at that, this trio as captured here is comprised of more mature/developed players than it was when it was a regular touring group. So, yeah. Believe the hype, because this time, as occasionally happens when life is in a good mood, it's true. Having been at this show and having seen the trio many times in the '70s, I'd say that while this music is great, it's not the definitive document of the working group as is The Quest from the trio's heyday (recorded 1976, released on Red in Italy and Pausa in USA). There's one other recording by this trio, similarly hard to find if not more so, but I'm blanking out on the title. Ah, found it here: http://www.bb10k.com/RIVERS.disc.html Paragon, from 1977. Definitely more obscure than The Quest. Listening to The Quest right now. Exquisite. If you can find a rip on the internets, grab it. Edited September 5, 2012 by Pete C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Forgot about that Pausa side, and forget why I never picked it up. Pausa was an easy label to get for a while. Never had access to the Fluid side. Time to start a course of corrective acquisition...but I still say believe the hype about this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 but I still say believe the hype about this one. Indeed, just a more relaxed dynamic than the intensity of the '70s, and no extended kit from Altschul (I always loved those doodads). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 a more relaxed dynamic than the intensity of the '70s, Boy, can I relate to that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Boy, can I relate to that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Boy, can I relate to that... Came close more than once... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mracz Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Just finished listening. No matter how big the hype you'll hear about this release, believe it. As much as I've liked Streams & Hues over the years, those trios were not this trio, and even at that, this trio as captured here is comprised of more mature/developed players than it was when it was a regular touring group. So, yeah. Believe the hype, because this time, as occasionally happens when life is in a good mood, it's true. Having been at this show and having seen the trio many times in the '70s, I'd say that while this music is great, it's not the definitive document of the working group as is The Quest from the trio's heyday (recorded 1976, released on Red in Italy and Pausa in USA). There's one other recording by this trio, similarly hard to find if not more so, but I'm blanking out on the title. Ah, found it here: http://www.bb10k.com/RIVERS.disc.html Paragon, from 1977. Definitely more obscure than The Quest. Listening to The Quest right now. Exquisite. If you can find a rip on the internets, grab it. I downloaded The Quest earlier this year from emusic (they have a number of interesting Red titles). A masterpiece, more evidence (if required) that the 70s was a VERY serious time for great music, although so much of it under the radar of the major labels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Glad to hear The Quest is officially available these days. I didn't know it had ever made it into the digital age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 I think I favor Paragon to The Quest by juuuust a little bit, but that's like comparing The Shape of Jazz to Come and Change of the Century, Miles Smiles, Sorcerer, and Nefertiti, etc. etc.--different shades of the same band. I've been psyched to hear this album for ages, so I'm thrilled this is finally seeing the light of day. The fact that this trio's available discography has been virtually nonexistent for the past several years, replaced (in a way) by documents of epigonic ensembles (Trio Live on Impulse, for one--good but, not as good), is somewhat of a travesty. I was always of the understanding that this was one of the iconic bands of the era, similar to the Art Ensemble, Air, and a handful of others, and the fact that things staying in or out of print can warp that perspective is kind of crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 One of the problems is that Impulse never recorded this trio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Sam was off of impulse! by the time this trio really hit its stride, right? Sizzle was his last session for them, and that was this trio "plus"...but right around the time the label began to go in a slightly different direction. That trio was a real road band, though. They played in Tulsa, Oklahoma. At a club. On a night, of course, that I got hung up with something less important but more immediately demanding. But you know, at a "big music school", the cats who leave home have friends who stayed behind, and reports would filter back about the trio here, there trio there, the trio over there, the trio out thataway...those guys made some rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) I'm pretty sure I started seeing the trio at Rivbea in '74, and through '75, numerous times. On weekends the trio, or an augmented group with Warren Smith or Joe Daley or both or others, or Winds of Manhattan would often do one set, and a guest artist would do the other. I remember the Braxton Quartet with Wheeler (the most crowded I ever saw the place), and a Frank Lowe set where a new guy in town, Black Arthur (Blythe) played alto. I'm pretty sure I was no longer a regular there by the time of the Wildflowers sessions. This confirms a June 1974 date: http://www.bb10k.com/RIVERS.disc.html#74.06.09 And how about this date from 12/72: those 3 plus Paul Bley! http://www.bb10k.com/RIVERS.disc.html#72.12.00-1 A little research also shows that the Braxton quartet gig was probably June 8 or 9, 1975. Don't know if Holland and Altschul played with Sam as well as Braxton that night. Edited September 6, 2012 by Pete C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 I think you're right, Jim, although there is something (in more general terms) to what Pete says. We'd definitely be hearing Paragon or The Quest if either had been on Impulse!--even Streams got reissued at one point, and it's basically a lesser iteration of the Altschul/Holland trio music. You of course can't blame what does get reissued (Trio Live, for example) for what doesn't, but history does get written off of what's there. I don't think it's unfair to say, for example, that Dave Holland's early solo career basically came out of the Sam Rivers freebop ethos--i.e., I don't think his music would have gone where it did if not for his time in Sam's band. Despite all that, most of the talk about Dave's early work tends to center around his time with Miles--it's selective historiography, yes, but people might be telling different stories if we'd heard the very prescient, very killing trio stuff with River and Altschul. Either way, this music is due for an appraisal. It's "free jazz," yes, but it is just relevant enough to even the current mainstream that it deserves notice from a wider consciousness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Looking over that sessionography, it looks like Altschul was onboard for a while before Holland...what was Holland doing then, did he have another ongoing gig or something?Did Braxton have a working band then that Holland was in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Looking over that sessionography, it looks like Altschul was onboard for a while before Holland...what was Holland doing then, did he have another ongoing gig or something? Did Braxton have a working band then that Holland was in? Isn't the commonly circulated story that Holland actually had to leave Braxton to join up with Sam's Trio? Holland does appear on a few live Braxton dates (where Altschul wasn't in the drum chair), so maybe it was literally a matter of switching commitments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) Holland and Altschul were working with both Braxton & Rivers in '75 and '76. Edited September 6, 2012 by Pete C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted September 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Holland and Altschul were working with both Braxton & Rivers in '75 and '76. That's what I thought, both bands were happening at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I can't get into YouTube at work, but a search shows that the title track, at least, of Paragon is up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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