Allen Toussaint

[Morganized]

If you missed it.......

Allen Toussaint

[AllenLowe]

hmmmmm.....not a particularly good pianist; bad voice. Not made for live performance. Has writ some good songs, however.

[JSngry]

A "notoriously inconsistent" live performer through the years, but who else could conjure this precise mojo?

Pocket, thy name is Zig.

[jeffcrom]

hmmmmm.....not a particularly good pianist; bad voice. Not made for live performance. Has writ some good songs, however.

I will admit that this post really set me off, to the extent that I just turned off the computer and walked around for awhile. Everyone's taste and judgement is different, but to me, talking bad about Allen Toussaint is like talking bad about Abraham Lincoln, or something like that.

In a calmer mood, I'll say that I don't think this performance represents him at his best - at least the parts I saw. But I'll also point out that Toussaint is one of those musicians who is way more than the sum of his parts.

[CJ Shearn]

Agreed Jeff, asd I've been diving into New Orleans music courtesy of a good friend, Touissant is very important, I often just ignore Mr. Lowe's comments on this forum.

[medjuck]

Ever see Piano Players Hardly Ever Play Together? He's a great fucking pianist.

[jeffcrom]

Agreed Jeff, asd I've been diving into New Orleans music courtesy of a good friend, Touissant is very important, I often just ignore Mr. Lowe's comments on this forum.

Allen's a friend. That post just struck a nerve with me, since Toussaint's one of those guys I consider to be a national treasure.

[CJ Shearn]

Ok, sorry about that post then, but I agree on Toussaint.

[Chuck Nessa]

Saw his show at the Chicago Jazz Festival a couple of weeks ago. It was good but not great. His guests were Marc Ribot and Don Byron. The audience loved it as the finale of the fest.

I have much fonder memories of a show at "the Top of the Gate" around 1980. The guests that night were Fathead Newman and Doctor John - dang!

[paul secor]

Ever see Piano Players Hardly Ever Play Together? He's a great fucking pianist.

[johnlitweiler]

He and his band and backup singers gave us a terrific show at the Chiago Blues Festival a few years ago. But as Cecil Taylor would say, always a pleasure.

[CJ Shearn]

Ever see Piano Players Hardly Ever Play Together? He's a great fucking pianist.

Got it but haven't watched it yet, definitely will!

[AllenLowe]

just talking about the ACL performance. It is genuinely not good. Sorry to throw a rock in the machine. And honestly, looking around at various things, listening, viewing, I don't see him as that great a perforrner; the only things I've liked are his Professor Longhair things - which are fine, but hardly epochal. Not more significant as a composer/producer?

though something tells me there will be some disagreement here.

Edited September 16, 2012 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

now, this is fun:

to quote Groucho as J Cheever Loophole: I have an agreement with the houseflies; they don't practice law, and I don't walk on the ceiling.

Edited September 16, 2012 by AllenLowe

[.:.impossible]

I had the pleasure of seeing him perform with his local jazz quartet in a back room in New Orleans a couple of years ago. His playing was impeccable; fluid and extremely dynamic. He was a joy. I did see this ACL when it aired and didn't think much of the set.

[AllenLowe]

so, maybe I can come out of hiding?

Edited September 16, 2012 by AllenLowe

[jeffcrom]

so, maybe I can come out of hiding?

You are hereby banished to Maine! Oh, wait....

The problem is that you're trying to make objective judgements about someone I can't be objective about, since I think he's an American hero. That's all.

I will say that a much better cut from the Wild Sound of New Orleans than "Java" is a little thing called "Whirlaway." When I was playing in a blues band (mostly keyboards), I used to play that one on piano. Except that, on a good night, I managed to play about 80% of what Mr. Toussaint played. Usually it was more like 60%.

[AllenLowe]

here we go:

I actually like Java the best,

[JSngry]

You can turn it all into one drum solo and it would be grand. A lot of New Orleans music is like that, just one big drum solo orchestrated for bands and singers and what have you. Cecil Taylor talked about "88 tuned drums", well, yeah. And it's not like he invented the idea, and it's not like it only applies to piano.

[MomsMobley]

I'm surprised at this, Brother Jeffcrom... What aspect(s) of Toussaint's solo schtick do you find engaging or exceptional? At his best he's not unpleasant; more often you just think how great an arranger/producer he was and wish for the sources of his myriad pastiches... If we cut him slack for doing crap with the Band (can't blame him for cashing the check or being unable to elevate that tiresome mess of hacks and junkies), what's anyone's excuse for that Elvis Costello shit biscuit? Etc etc... I know some people who claim Toussaint's last one "Bright Mississippi" was his 'best' ever but come on, it's not even as good/interesting as Dick Curless (speaking of Maine) on Rounder, let alone Teddy Edwards "Mississippi Lad," and requires a lot less I-wish-it-was-better indulgence...

Tho' I think AT's best is greater/more "important" than, say, Duke Pearson's, their solo output is pretty equal, except I bet Duke could sing better if he had too and I'll take Lizzie Miles 11 times out 10 over both of 'em.

hmmmmm.....not a particularly good pianist; bad voice. Not made for live performance. Has writ some good songs, however.

I will admit that this post really set me off, to the extent that I just turned off the computer and walked around for awhile. Everyone's taste and judgement is different, but to me, talking bad about Allen Toussaint is like talking bad about Abraham Lincoln, or something like that.

In a calmer mood, I'll say that I don't think this performance represents him at his best - at least the parts I saw. But I'll also point out that Toussaint is one of those musicians who is way more than the sum of his parts.

Edited September 17, 2012 by MomsMobley

[jeffcrom]

Good evening, Brother Mobley. Your post made me chuckle, but I'm not sure where to even start responding to it. How 'bout your very loaded first sentence? Whatever you think of Mr. Toussaint's output, it ain't "schtick." And I'm not arguing that every note he has played or sung is brilliant. But I think that his output, as a writer, producer, pianist, and yes, performer, adds up to an amazing contribution to American music.

Okay, but as a solo performer.... I like The Bright Mississippi quite a bit, but, no, I don't pretend that it's any more than it is - a nice, pleasant look at the New Orleans jazz tradition. But what the hell is "Pickles," from 1970? It's some kind of swamp funk piano concerto - four and a half minutes long, and it can't quite decide whether it's in a major or minor key. And the song "From a Whisper to a Scream" - who else would come up a line like, "I took her kindness for granted, as if it came with the wallpaper" in a pop/R & B song?

Mr. Lowe doesn't like his voice, but damn! It's not a strong voice; not a pretty voice - but it's real, and suited to the material. (I just flashed on Hank Mobley's description of his own sound. Y'all know it.) And over and over again I hear in Mr. Toussaint's output a tweaking of convention - when he's getting close to what's expected in a pop or R & B song, he'll go somewhere else.

I've said before that you and I might just live on different planets, but on mine, writing those great horn charts for The Band is not any kind of sellout. I can't address the Elvis Costello collaboration, since I haven't heard it, but if you think it's coasting, I say good for the septuagenarian Allen Toussaint. Dude has done so much for American music that I say let him coast if he wants to.

I don't always get your putting down one musician by comparing him/her to another, but I sure like me some Lizzie Miles - and some Fats, too.

For a lot of reasons, Allen Toussaint among them, everybody here should pick up the best of all the Katrina relief albums that came out after the storm - Our New Orleans 2005 on Nonesuch. Carol Fran singing "Every Day is Not the Same" in Creole French is pretty amazing.

[MomsMobley]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Brother Jeffcrom... Surely AT deserved more than he got for his best work but-- being VERY distraught by his '70s arranger-for-hire (that Band stuff being perhaps greatest gulf between huge rep and lame achievement), I hoped his solo moves shucked that more aggressively... Also, timid covers of Professor Longhair are as irksome as the jillion inane Monk covers (Paul Motian's among the worst) tho' perhaps less common.. And I will say, pace AT's voice... it's better than Burt Bacharach's!!

Sidenote 1: I finally got a copy of the elusive Richard H. Knowles' "Fallen Heroes" + cd... more anon.

Sidenote 2: horrible as the Band and its solo iterations largely were after 1968, this is pretty hot, ridiculous (lyrics by Emmett Grogan)--

Sidenote 3: Lizzie Miles + Sharkey Bonano

Edited September 17, 2012 by MomsMobley

[AllenLowe]

I'm with Moms on this, though I don't want to create any additional emotional scars for Jeff.

Toussaint was there, a good guy, but I just don't find him that compelling - now, Dr. John in his gris gris days is another matter..........................

[Clunky]

i was totally ignorant of AT until Bright Mississippi which I really enjoyed (initially, perhaps it's wearing a bit thin now). I tried the collaboration with Elvis Costello which I have to say I didn't really warm to.

[jeffcrom]

Sidenote 1: I finally got a copy of the elusive Richard H. Knowles' "Fallen Heroes" + cd... more anon.

I'm more than happy to take this opportunity to derail this thread, since you and Allen have hurt my tender feelings so badly. Congrats on snagging Fallen Heroes. Track 6, from the 1929 Zulu parade, is frustrating, but mind-blowing. You can only hear 30 seconds of music by a parade band, but those 30 seconds are a hot fragment of "Shake That Thing," with John Casimir's clarinet squealing over the top. And track 16 is the only issued recording of the George Williams Brass Band. It's a low-fi street recording, but Willams' influential bass drumming comes through pretty well.