MLB Hot Stove League 2012-13

[Tim McG]

FWIW, MLB is free to include pot as well as other "harder" drugs and to test for them in the minor leagues because those players have no collective bargaining rights. But when the kid makes the majors, he won't have to worry about his pot habit causing a problem.

To which Tim Lincecum is eternally grateful for that CBA!

And has, IMHO, messed up his ability to pitch.

[Brad]

There's nothing that says that a candidate has to get in on his first year of eligibility and I think that is what's happening here.

As far as distinguishing between stats put up before and after the steroid era, you can hardly admit people that way or give them half a plaque.

As far as removing players who are in, once they're in, they can't be turned out.

I don't believe Rose is a good example because as I remember (could be wrong),he's on the inactive list (or something like that) and as such can't be considered for the HOF.

As far as Bagwell and Piazza, there's nothing tangible (whispers and suspicions) and based on their vote totals they, unless something comes out in the next year or two, will get in.

Getting into the HOF is not just about numbers but about "integrity."

Rule 5 of the Baseball Writers Assocation, as it pertains to the HOF, states

"Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

Bill Madden was on WFAN in NY today stating that he took the "integrity" part seriously.

Picking and choosing is what they do.

You may not like the result this year but there's no saying that Bonds or Clemens won't get in eventually.

It's only when somebody's favorite doesn't get in that we get bent out of shape.

As sparse as this year looks, next year may be a plethora of riches with possibly Maddux, Glavine, Thomas and several managers getting in.

[Neal Pomea]

Agree with Brad. I think there may be quite a few inductees next year, including Maddux, Glavine, Frank Thomas, maybe Biggio and Bagwell, Piazza. I even believe they will eventually induct Bonds and Clemens, and maybe not before too long either.

As for integrity, they couldn't bar Ty Cobb even though he was a hateful, mean, and troubled man whom even teammates hated. He was just too good. Would he have a hard time getting in today? Probably so.

I don't think the HOF needs to be fixed. The writers are reflecting today's values, as the writers of the past did in their time too.

[JSngry]

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2013/1/10/3857198/barry-bonds-mlb-hall-of-fame-voting-steroids

Keep in mind two landmarks – the 1989 Oakland A’s and the home run race between Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa in 1998. Both were fueled by steroids. So what did the commissioner, the sport writers who fancy themselves as the game’s conscience, and pontificating politicians say then? How did the guardians of the game deal with the intrusion of steroids in baseball’s holy of holies? The answer is – they ignored it.

[PHILLYQ]

Every player who received 50%+ in their first year has reached the HOF.

Rose violated a rule that has been streesed since the White Sox threw the WS. There's a sign about it in every facility. He knew that what he was doing was wrong, he knew the potential consequences and he STILL did it. Zero sympathy here, you make your bed...

[Soulstation1]

I believe Rose is still on th disqualified list

I could be wrong

As for Bonds

I guess when you treat the media like crap your entire career they don't forgot that shizznet

[alocispepraluger102]

an excellent apologia for barry bonds--

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2013/1/10/3857198/barry-bonds-mlb-hall-of-fame-voting-steroids

[PHILLYQ]

I believe Rose is still on th disqualified list

I could be wrong

As for Bonds

I guess when you treat the media like crap your entire career they don't forgot that shizznet

Although Eddie Murray hated sportswriters and they voted him in.

Rose is still disqualified.

[Soulstation1]

Same with Steve Lefty Carlton......

[paul secor]

Ted Williams didn't have much use for sportwriters.

[Brad]

In today's New York Times, the case for Fred McGriff,

"Buried far down the list of Hall of Fame vote-getters released Wednesday is one who didn’t capture any headlines for his lack of votes. That’s only fitting because during his career, his achievements were increasingly buried beneath headlines touting big-name players with big muscles. When it comes to the Hall of Fame, Fred McGriff is perhaps the quintessential victim of the way the game was corrupted by the players, players union, owners and the commissioner."

Here is the full article, http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/11/quirks-of-the-game-the-case-for-fred-mcgriff/?ref=sports

[Quincy]

In today's New York Times, the case for Fred McGriff,

Last month there was at least one other article or blog post advocating his case and I'm glad to see it get legs. Like vajerzy I change my mind often as to what to do with the steroid gang. What Bonds was doing in the early-to-mid '90s with the Giants when he had speed & power were some of the greatest seasons put up ever and I'd be tempted to put him in based on that even if you decided to erase everything once he starting using the 'roids. But anyway, I think if a voter is not going to vote for a steroid user than go the distance. Discount those numbers at whatever level your mathematical brain thinks the rate should be and try to compare it to what a clean player like McGriff put up. Obviously it's not easy, but too many voters are penalizing all of the players by their methods. I'm not suggesting McGriff is a first ballot guy, but he's in the neighborhood worthy of more discussion.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Quincy

[Dan Gould]

I go back and forth on McGriff myself. 493 homers is a lot but:

he played in a pro-offense era;

he never sniffed an MVP (top finish #4, once);

as consistent as he was, he never hit 40 homers in a season, so he can't point to any monster seasons

The Black Ink/Gray Ink test on Baseball reference sums it up:

Black Ink Batting - 9 (254), Average HOFer ≈ 27 Gray Ink

Batting - 105 (207), Average HOFer ≈ 144

So I am just not sold on McGriff. Lots of compiling, not enough dominating.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Dan Gould

[JSngry]

He played pretty damn good defense, as I recall. May or may not be enough to swing the vote, but just sayin'.

Damn fine player. I was a fan then, and a fan now.

[Dan Gould]

He played pretty damn good defense, as I recall. May or may not be enough to swing the vote, but just sayin'.

Damn fine player. I was a fan then, and a fan now.

Totally agree he was a fine player but regarding defense, at a non-premium position does that help that much?

(Didn't do jack shit for Steve Garvey who, when you think of it was also a solid offensive threat who compiled stats with few if any dominant years, just did it in a much lower-offense era. And also hasn't sniffed the Hall.)

[JSngry]

Yeah, but Garvey was a douche.

[JSngry]

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2013/1/11/3866648/milton-bradley-domestic-abuse-charges-trial-jail-time

[Matthew]

Zero surprise about Bradley, what a jerk.

[Quincy]

I go back and forth on McGriff myself. 493 homers is a lot but:

he played in a pro-offense era;

Lou Gehrig did too though. And then there's that just playing against white guys thing. Not that McGriff was Lou Gehrig...

he never sniffed an MVP (top finish #4, once);

as consistent as he was, he never hit 40 homers in a season, so he can't point to any monster seasons

Yeah, these are trouble spots. He's sort of like a Jim Kaat or Tommy John of hitters. Accumulated stats but not hitting the magic number.

The Black Ink/Gray Ink test on Baseball reference sums it up:

Black Ink Batting - 9 (254), Average HOFer ≈ 27 Gray Ink

Batting - 105 (207), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Well this is where things get tricky. He wasn't dosing but lots of guys were. So it's difficult to finish in the top 10 each year with the power stats if you're playing "organic." What does hitting 70 HR on steroids at Wrigley compare to hitting 38 in Atlanta without steroids? It also depends on when one thinks steroids were being heavily used. 1988 in Oakland certainly but rampant use league wide may have been a little later.

So I am just not sold on McGriff. Lots of compiling, not enough dominating.

I'm not completely sold either, but what if rather than 493 he had hit 500? I mean a trade to somewhere else other than San Diego even though it was just 2 years & change would have just about guaranteed he ended up with over 500. Had he lucked out and played at a favorable park like Yankee Stadium he'd have likely come closer to McCovey's totals (which are more impressive earned in a pitching era). Oh well, he at least makes the hall of the very good.

[Dan Gould]

That's the true irony, Eric - I'm arguing against him as a compiler, but had he compiled just a bit more, should he make it?

A few seasons in NY and he might have ended up at 600 homers instead and yeah, that's tough to ignore.

But what do I know? I feel like Lee Smith has a similar legit argument but he doesn't seem to be getting much traction either.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Dan Gould

[Quincy]

But what do I know? I feel like Lee Smith has a similar legit argument but he doesn't seem to be getting much traction either.

I wonder if his small but horrid postseason sample hurts him. 4G, 2L, 9 hits in 5 1/3 for an ERA of 8.44. Only 5 relievers are in the Hall and all were World Series winners. But he worked his ass off and for over a dozen years dominated. I can still easily picture him holding the ball behind his back, slightly bent and sweating up a storm before striking out his man.

The Cubs had one of the great bullpens in the making during his rookie season in 1980.

Bruce Sutter was the defending Cy Young winner.

Willie Hernandez from the left side would win the AL MVP & CY for the '84 Tigers.

Bill Caudill would end up on the M's and finish in the top 4 in saves in the AL for 3 years in a row.

Dirt Tidrow appeared in 84 games and pitched 116 relief innings. Surprise - his next year sucked but he had another good year left in him after that.

And then 22 year old Lee Smith, whose talent helped push the lot of them to other teams.

[GA Russell]

I distinguish between cheating by using drugs, and cheating with emory boards and spitters. I think that drug-using cheaters should never get in, regardless of their early career success.

I'm a huge fan of Jim Kaat. Not only did he win more than 280 games by changing his pitching style over the years, but he won (IIRC) over ten consecutive Gold Gloves. When someone of any position wins ten consecutive Gold Gloves, I think that he belongs in the HOF.

And speaking of fielders, in my book there's has never been a better fielding first baseman than Vic Power!

[Brad]

Sorry but although Vic Power may have been good the best was Keith Hernandez, and Mattingly is not that far behind.

[Soulstation1]

Greg Maddux only won 18 gold gloves

Damn.......

Edited January 12, 2013 by Soulstation1

[JSngry]

Phil Niekro, y'all, Phil Niekro!