Daniel A Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Maybe this is more about what you think of Pat Williams as an orchestral arranger in this context. Their last album (from 1979) was á capella, and while it is not up the level of their first á capella album it does not fit under your disco label. Perhaps not even TSU/HGBS were immune to the changing production ideals of the late 70s, and I can imagine that the later albums appealed to their audience at the time. Someone who was following the scene back then would have to tell, though. Myself, I prefer the group without instrumental backing with the exception of the album with Oscar Peterson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted November 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 As I said in post #4, "...just about everyone went to hell by the late 70s or 1980s, so I can't really fault these guys (and gal)." So I'm not really singling out Singers Unlimited. Those two Pat Williams albums are pretty far aesthetically from the previous albums. I believe the McConnell album is from this same period, but again, as I mentioned earlier, the copyright dates on the PAUSA reissues do not necessarily reflect the original release dates, so I can't always place these releases in strict chronological order. I've liked Pat Williams in other settings, but not here. Obviously, I'm measuring these albums based on my own tastes and expectations based on their previous albums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etherbored Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Nice (attempt at a) save! And Daniel's right, of course. Surveying the MPS landscape of the later 1970's reveals a catalog and musicians/arrangers very much of the era shall we say. I guess what really caught my eye about this thread (besides claiming to own more Singers Unliimited than anyone else here.....) was the title implying artistic decline with the end of the 70's (which is certainly a thread unto its own) but isn't this your era of love, Drew?And until you've heard the MPS remix recording you can't know how "to hell" things went.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted November 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 ...I guess what really caught my eye about this thread (besides claiming to own more Singers Unliimited than anyone else here.....) was the title implying artistic decline with the end of the 70's (which is certainly a thread unto its own) but isn't this your era of love, Drew? My claim that I owned more than anyone was in jest; we've established that I don't own Eventide and never heard of it until now. The first half of the 70s is one of my many "eras of love." The second half of that decade is dodgy, and I mostly avoid it, except for certain genres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etherbored Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I know - I'm just jesting back. And hey, there's plenty of great stuff out there from '78 and '79. But yeah, the batting average dropped significantly by then when contrasted with earlier in the decade. BTW, do you dig Peterson's "Motions & Emotions" for MPS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted November 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 BTW, do you dig Peterson's "Motions & Emotions" for MPS? Oh yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 On 11/23/2012 at 8:42 PM, Bill Nelson said: The first Singers' LP clinker was 'Just in Time' recorded in April '77 with L.A. big band charts arranged by Roger Kellaway. Listened to this one today, in fact, and it's not a big band, it's Kellaway's Cello Quartet. And it's a damn good record to my ears today, in spite of Kellaway being consistently quirky and only sometimes not annoying about it. Gene Puerling would not be denied! and c'mon, holy hell what is tHIS!?!?!?!?!?!?!!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgcim Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 21 hours ago, JSngry said: Listened to this one today, in fact, and it's not a big band, it's Kellaway's Cello Quartet. And it's a damn good record to my ears today, in spite of Kellaway being consistently quirky and only sometimes not annoying about it. Gene Puerling would not be denied! and c'mon, holy hell what is tHIS!?!?!?!?!?!?!!? I've bought so much of their vinyl, and all the a Capella on CD, that I'm not even sure if I have that one, but it sounds great to me. I mean, you've even got Don Shelton scatting his ass off. Then you've got some great RK, GP's arrangements and there's even a cello floating around in there. Wild stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 Prompted by this thread I went to the shelves and discovered that I have no less than eleven SU LPs, all of them purchased at Half-Price Books for 50 cents each a few years ago. Listening to them last night and this morning, a funny thought occurred to me: Did Morton Feldman know their work? Probably not, but two of Feldman's major latter-day choral works, "Rothko Chapel" and "For Stefan Wolpe" (for chorus and two vibraphones) each about 30 minutes in length, seem to me like they would have benefited immensely from performances by the SU, albeit not by any reworkings by Gene Puerling -- in any case Feldman's conception in these pieces seems to me to not be far removed by Puerling's in his more abstract moments. IMO, the two choral groups that have recorded those magical pieces are not in the same league as the SU, though they didn't have the benefit of SU-style multi-tracking or, now that I think of it, of Bonnie Herman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 26 minutes ago, Larry Kart said: ...by Puerling's in his more abstract moments. Yeah, that's the thing about SU - Puerling DOES have abstract moments (more than moments, but I know what you mean). But I got mind-fucked by only hearing there Mel Torme meets Johnny Mann Singers Jingles On Bad Speed records in the NTSU environment of the day) and was totally repelled from listening at all. That was one of the more egregious errors in my musical "journey" (hate that word), and you know, I've always loved hi-Los, early stuff especially. I should have known better. So...my bad. But this guy...yeah, he had intense skills, no matter what use to which he put them. and ballads/moods that kind of thing...I am totally down with that. Totally. Just finished with the Magical Voices box, going to do a thread in the next few days, album-by-album, year-by-year, will be effusive in both love and disdain as called for , book your table now, we're opening to Phase 2 levels any day now! 38 minutes ago, Larry Kart said: Bonnie Herman. Back in the day, I loved Abbey Lincoln and so did NOT hear or otherwise get Bonnie Herman in any way. Again, my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 55 minutes ago, JSngry said: Yeah, that's the thing about SU - Puerling DOES have abstract moments (more than moments, but I know what you mean). But I got mind-fucked by only hearing there Mel Torme meets Johnny Mann Singers Jingles On Bad Speed records in the NTSU environment of the day) and was totally repelled from listening at all. That was one of the more egregious errors in my musical "journey" (hate that word), and you know, I've always loved hi-Los, early stuff especially. I should have known better. So...my bad. But this guy...yeah, he had intense skills, no matter what use to which he put them. and ballads/moods that kind of thing...I am totally down with that. Totally. Just finished with the Magical Voices box, going to do a thread in the next few days, album-by-album, year-by-year, will be effusive in both love and disdain as called for , book your table now, we're opening to Phase 2 levels any day now! Back in the day, I loved Abbey Lincoln and so did NOT hear or otherwise get Bonnie Herman in any way. Again, my bad. As I'm sure I've mentioned before, I once got a near mash-note letter from Herman after I'd praised in a review a veteran singer we both knew, the late and sublime Audrey Morris. BTW, Herman was married to (hope they're still a couple) veteran Chicago drummer Tom Radtke. He's on at least one SU album, doing yeoman work. She was also IIRC the sister of the at one time prominent Chicago banker A. Robert Abboud. Never met Herman though, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 "Abstract" indeed. Like a MO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 What's an MO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 a MOFO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 (edited) I think there's a missing FO in there. I am halfway curious about Jim's promised thread if only for entertainment value. It was an incredible struggle to let that Lullabuy of Birdland play thru. I was ready to lapse into a diabetic coma. Edited June 18, 2020 by Dan Gould Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 1 minute ago, JSngry said: a MOFO! Gotcha. Audrey Morriss; she's the pianist here too: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 17 minutes ago, Dan Gould said: I think there's a missing FO in there. I am halfway curious about Jim's promised thread if only for entertainment value. It was an incredible struggle to let that Lullabuy of Birdland play thru. I was ready to lapse into a diabetic coma. Yeah, it's only "sugar" on the surface. The actual things that are happening are more like heroin, or, maybe, Quaaludes. Ain't no carb rush on that one, trust me. That harmony - which is totally the object of this game - is just getting stretched out in ALL kinds of directions in ALL kinds of ways...if you heard it played on instruments, you would complain that it's too abstract to enjoy, not that it's too sweet to tolerate! But put them sweet White Jingle Singer voices to it and a-HA! they got you fooled! Narcotics are a tricky breed. First you vomit, then you zone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, JSngry said: Yeah, it's only "sugar" on the surface. The actual things that are happening are more like heroin, or, maybe, Quaaludes. Ain't no carb rush on that one, trust me. That harmony - which is totally the object of this game - is just getting stretched out in ALL kinds of directions in ALL kinds of ways...if you heard it played on instruments, you would complain that it's too abstract to enjoy, not that it's too sweet to tolerate! But put them sweet White Jingle Singer voices to it and a-HA! they got you fooled! Narcotics are a tricky breed. First you vomit, then you zone. I guess my attraction to the music is purely surface oriented because all I get is a sugar-induced headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 The inner workings of harmony (and movements of inner voices) are not something that everybody naturally gravitates to, nor is it something that's really a part of any "popular" music of the Post-WWII era...people hear stacked triads these days and think it's "harmony", and, well, it is. But it's just basic shit, no matter how pretty it sounds or how pumped up in the mix it is. Like anything else, there's a lot more to it than that. All these a capella groups that are the rage now, meh, basic shit just sung really well. Take 6 otoh, yeah, they got thier shit together. And they freely admit that Gene Puerling is their guru. You can tell who knows and who doesn't. Basic is in no way bad, mind you, basic can be beautiful, and sometimes basic is best. But basic is not all there is that can be had or done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgcim Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 38 minutes ago, JSngry said: The inner workings of harmony (and movements of inner voices) are not something that everybody naturally gravitates to, nor is it something that's really a part of any "popular" music of the Post-WWII era...people hear stacked triads these days and think it's "harmony", and, well, it is. But it's just basic shit, no matter how pretty it sounds or how pumped up in the mix it is. Like anything else, there's a lot more to it than that. All these a capella groups that are the rage now, meh, basic shit just sung really well. Take 6 otoh, yeah, they got thier shit together. And they freely admit that Gene Puerling is their guru. You can tell who knows and who doesn't. Basic is in no way bad, mind you, basic can be beautiful, and sometimes basic is best. But basic is not all there is that can be had or done. It's incredible that nothing is written about GP in academic circles. I've searched for books, thesis lists, etc.. and come up with zilch. Of course, he's the darling of college vocal jazz group programs, but they tend to go with his more 'cutesy' stuff. I've been transcribing anything by him that hits me, and there's some stuff I've never heard used by anyone before, even Gil Evans. His stuff does translate well into the big band idiom, and I've had success with adaptations of some of his more abstract things that I weld together with my own sections that make it a vehicle for swinging improvisation. One trombone player who played it came up to me and said, "It's... just a great piece". When I mention GP's name to them, they just give me a blank stare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 54 minutes ago, sgcim said: Of course, he's the darling of college vocal jazz group programs, but they tend to go with his more 'cutesy' stuff. and you know, fuck that shit. Ain't nobody needing that except them, so please let's hope they do like Sonny boy said and keep it to yoursel. OTOH, hey: Bonnie Herman on that verse...soulful like a mo, the kind of thing that shows what's in there, but only, ONLY, on her terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 (edited) Edited June 18, 2020 by Daniel A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 I listened to "Round Midnight" last night, and my brains are still scrambled from what Puerling (and Clare Fischer) did: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 3 hours ago, JSngry said: and you know, fuck that shit. Ain't nobody needing that except them, so please let's hope they do like Sonny boy said and keep it to yoursel. OTOH, hey: Bonnie Herman on that verse...soulful like a mo, the kind of thing that shows what's in there, but only, ONLY, on her terms. When the guys come in behind her, tears come to my eyes. And what's going on harmonically on the word "sing"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgcim Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 21 minutes ago, Larry Kart said: When the guys come in behind her, tears come to my eyes. And what's going on harmonically on the word "sing"? Sounds like a C11th chord with the F on top in the key of Eb. I've played that song a lot, but nothing can compare what they do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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