colinmce

Modern/Avant New Releases: A running thread

1,792 posts in this topic

First of all, let me say I really LOVE discussions like these above! I don't nearly have enough indept knowledge yet to participate in these kind of discussions, but I find them very fascinating and educational to read.

I actually "just" wanted to post some information/soundclips on two new AUM releases, which might also be of interest here:

David S.Ware/ Apogee - Birth of a Being:
https://soundcloud.com/aum-fidelity/david-s-ware-birth-of-a-being-series-of-excerpts 

William Parker Raining on the Moon - Great Spirit:
https://soundcloud.com/aum-fidelity/william-parker-raining-on-the-moon-great-spirit-series-of-excerpts 

Edited by niels

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well, Chapin was the worst example, I always thought; you mentioned Ibragon, and I agree, from what little I have heard. And the one piece I listened to of Laubrock's new CD on Firehouse had that kind of annoying buildup. So that can get us started.

btw, on that Braxon, listen from about 8:40 forward to give an idea of how this very vertical and stationery method can work when the ensemble offers some relief.

look, I should add, in all of this, that these are only my personal intolerances; I have to admit that I have lost patience with a lot of contemporary improvising that does not seem to grasp what I would call the linear/non-linear African American post-blues diasporic tradition. That's a mouthful I know, and there are wonderful alternatives out there to it - think Paul Bley and Matt Shipp for a start, neither of which is a particularly blues-based improviser, but both of whom have found deep, deep alternatives to the expressive prison that can be the blues; as have Roscoe and Leo Smith, to broaden my frame, 2 players who get so far inside that it's really outside. Braxton is another; don't always like his work but he does so much that he is entitled to his excesses. The bleat-bleat of Laubrock strikes me as a very artificial alternative, a flailing for originality, with moments of insight but longer passages of aimlessness. And btw, those of you who have not heard Karl's guitar playing would understand further what I mean if they did, because he is beholden to no school other than the one that commands freedom and feeling. But ultimately I have no ideological point, I only think the improviser has to create his/her own frame of reference, though even that is not quite enough. The rest is really a matter of connecting, not to an audience, but to some level of consciousness that goes beyond simple sonic mimicry of that consciousness. I don't know how better to explain this, other than to think of the way Larry Kart describes shapes in improvisation or to refer you to Beckett's theater pieces, to the play Woyzeck, and Pinter's better work.

Edited by AllenLowe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, let me say I really LOVE discussions like these above! I don't nearly have enough indept knowledge yet to participate in these kind of discussions, but I find them very fascinating and educational to read.

I actually "just" wanted to post some information/soundclips on two new AUM releases, which might also be of interest here:

David S.Ware/ Apogee - Birth of a Being:
https://soundcloud.com/aum-fidelity/david-s-ware-birth-of-a-being-series-of-excerpts 

William Parker Raining on the Moon - Great Spirit:
https://soundcloud.com/aum-fidelity/william-parker-raining-on-the-moon-great-spirit-series-of-excerpts 

Great. There can never be too much Raining On The Moon music or David S. Ware for that matter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The things you guys are saying about Laubrock just have nothing to do with her aesthetic, which you clearly don't know about, and which is shaped to address the very kinds of questions you raise. The comparison with what Chapin was doing in the 90s are just out of date. Wheeling out Roscoe and Braxton who have 30 years on Laubrock... I dunno. At that point just bring out Boulez whose handling of harmony, sonority and time knocks those guys dead... but then what kind of conversation would that be...? 

Edited by David Ayers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you, David.

I listen to someone like John Dikeman, good player who's clearly done a lot of listening to Wright and Brötzmann, whom I also love, not to mention Vandermark, and it just doesn't hit for me. Michael Foster is another, perhaps less nuanced example among the younger set. Going from zero to nutting in .02 seconds and holding it there for 20+ minutes in 2015 isn't what I want to hear, unless it's from someone who can really make that mean something. Usually that person has been making musical constructions and expressions for far longer than Foster, Dikeman or whomever has been alive.

Being a thirty-year-old jazz musician in 2015 also means something different than it did in 1965 or 1975, I'm guessing. The statements one makes carry different weight. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

I agree with you, David.

I listen to someone like John Dikeman, good player who's clearly done a lot of listening to Wright and Brötzmann, whom I also love, not to mention Vandermark, and it just doesn't hit for me. Michael Foster is another, perhaps less nuanced example among the younger set. Going from zero to nutting in .02 seconds and holding it there for 20+ minutes in 2015 isn't what I want to hear, unless it's from someone who can really make that mean something. Usually that person has been making musical constructions and expressions for far longer than Foster, Dikeman or whomever has been alive.

Being a thirty-year-old jazz musician in 2015 also means something different than it did in 1965 or 1975, I'm guessing. The statements one makes carry different weight. 

Agreed.  I've been listening to Barry Altschul's "Tales of the Unforseen," and to my tiny little brain it is one of the best releases of the year, in no small part because of Ibragon's playing.  Moreso than his peers, he seems to have made his own connection to the music of the past and added his voice to it.  The combination of Ibragon, Altschul and Joe Fonda recalls Jimmy Giuffre's 1961 trio in execution and creativity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Stefan Wood said:

Agreed.  I've been listening to Barry Altschul's "Tales of the Unforseen," and to my tiny little brain it is one of the best releases of the year, in no small part because of Ibragon's playing.  Moreso than his peers, he seems to have made his own connection to the music of the past and added his voice to it.  The combination of Ibragon, Altschul and Joe Fonda recalls Jimmy Giuffre's 1961 trio in execution and creativity.

Any favourable comparisons to that Giuffre band (one of my all time favourites) always makes me pay attention. I wasn't very taken by Ibragon on the previous 3dom Factor TUM release. in fact he's the main reason I don't listen to it that much. I now feel I should revisit that one and possibly investigate the new one

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Tales of the Unforseen" is a much better album than the previous release.  More variety, better playing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Stefan Wood said:

"Tales of the Unforseen" is a much better album than the previous release.  More variety, better playing.

 

I agree. Like both of them, but the new one more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm listening to the first one again now. Like it more than I remember but I still find Ibragon's undeniable technique obscures feeling to my ears. His playing's like a masterclass demonstration, so much technique. The other two ooze feeling (and technique) - perhaps that's a reflection of their longevity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, David Ayers said:

The things you guys are saying about Laubrock just have nothing to do with her aesthetic, which you clearly don't know about, and which is shaped to address the very kinds of questions you raise. The comparison with what Chapin was doing in the 90s are just out of date. Wheeling out Roscoe and Braxton who have 30 years on Laubrock... I dunno. At that point just bring out Boulez whose handling of harmony, sonority and time knocks those guys dead... but then what kind of conversation would that be...? 

Well, again--I agree it's fruitless to compare folks who have attained this sort of "master seniority" status with the younger people in the trenches, but then (and I feel like this is implicit in both your statement and Clifford's) I feel like the methods of evaluating contemporary free jazz and free improvisation have very little to do with "traditional" jazz criticism or listening. If you can't use Roscoe or Braxton (or, for that matter, Boulez, or Luigi Nono, or Bach, etc.) as some sort of "objective" criteria, according to what standard are we even receiving this music right now?

Speaking to what you said (i.e., "and which is shaped to address the very kinds of questions you raise")--I feel like this in some way applies to all contemporary experimental music insofar as that music participates in this lineage that can be traced back to early free jazz and 20th century new music (whether that be the New York School, Darmstadt, or whatever). We're officially living in a "post" era, and this is evident in not only explicitly postmodern improvised music (from the likes of Zorn or Eugene Chadbourne--going on like four decades worth, at this point) but also with folks like Laubrock, Mary Halvorson, Tyshawn Sorey, Vijay Iyer, etc. etc.

So in a way, it's unfair to compare this music to the undiluted restructuralism of an Ornette (or, for that matter, a Braxton or Roscoe). At the same time, this is what I meant (above) about stuff like the burden of history. Like Clifford (very acutely) says, being a thirty year old jazz musician in 2015 is nothing like it was in the 60's or 70's. We're not only confronted with the burden of creating anything new, but we're also struggling with the responsibility of accumulated knowledge. Improvisers coming up now are forced to deal with a glut of sorted information that is easy to access. The challenge is in digesting, reconstituting, and re-creating.

So yes, it's absolutely unfair to compare Laubrock with Braxton, because the social and cultural inputs are very different. At the same time, there is no explicit model for the music of the 21st century. It is either/both being created or has not been created yet. It is somehow "not enough" to be a Braxton clone, but I'm hard pressed to identify many new creative modalities in the lineage of jazz improvisation since the 1980's--and, moreover, thirtysomethings don't have a Bird, Coltrane, Braxton, or even Steve Coleman to rally around. Kamasi Washington is 34 and (by reputation--on these boards) is adding nothing new to the Coltrane continuum. Vijay Iyer is 44 years old and an icon of sorts, but even he is often preoccupied with digesting the repertoire and rhythmic mechanics of much older music.

This plays more directly into what Allen says (and thank you for the kind words, Allen)--I think it really is up to contemporary improvisers to create their own frame(s) of reference. In a self-critical and peer-critical sense, however, I feel like the possibilities therein are absolutely endless, and I also hear so few people who are willing to push their own boundaries in really exciting--maybe stupid, maybe unsuccessful, but also creative--ways. I think that the jazz continuum (in a historical sense, if not a technical sense) is still alive and densely populated with very talented players and composers--but I also think that it hasn't pushed itself hard and wild enough in the 21st century for it to have had any big, "boundary breaking" moments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I couldn't stand the first 3dom album, largely on account of Altschul.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I asked what such a discussion would look like it was a rhetorical question. ;)

 

Musical criticism has to begin with a proper and proportionate evaluation of someone's endeavor, wherever else it may subsequently turn.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys are talking of Jon Irabagon, yes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, king ubu said:

You guys are talking of Jon Irabagon, yes?

the main discussion has mostly been about Laubrock in response to Allen Lowe's comments up thread. Ibragon's been mentioned in passing in that discussion but there's now concurrent posts about Altschul's 3dom band and folks' views on Ibragon in that. All very confusing.....and I've been following since the beginning of the discussion (I think) :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what is Laubrock's esthetic? Meandering, for one. But.....look, as I implied above I should just stick to making my own recordings, because those are my best arguments, I do believe. There are a lot of musicians whose musicianship I admire more than their work, or their compositions. Most of all, however, I admire hunger. But she sounds like she's just had a big meal and is now sitting down in front of the TV to let it digest.  If it was me, I'd let out a big burp and move on.

Edited by AllenLowe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm gonna say this about Irabagon. I was initially taken by his extreme command of the horn and was initially impressed with the record on not two records called Absolute Zero where he plays alto saxophone with two very fine Portuguese dudes including the great Gabriel Ferrandini and then I saw him with Helias and Altschul and it was a fine couple of sets except there was something scratching at me or needling me that something was somehow missing. The technically daunting boppish piece they played was like wow but I realized even by the next morning that that piece was hollow at the core. 

Then I bought that record Foxy which after getting to about the 50 minute point, I realized it was some sort of joke or scam. Certainly the worst recording I've heard over the last 20 years that includes good musicians. Then I revisited Absolute Zero and I realized he plays the whole fucking time.

last straw for now was last year - trio with Mary Halvorsen & Nasheet Waits. Awesome first set mostly because of the guitarist and drummer. Ends at typical time / about 10:10 or so. They come back at 11:05 and play 30 minutes. Again strong playing from the others and OK from Irabagon but I've lost the desire to listen to him. I admit his actions effected me but I hear a bunch of all horse and no cattle. No voice of his own but he can "play" anything from straight ahead to free jazz - but for now I can't hear a note. He's a technical marvel who doesn't know what improvising is yet. And IMO, as long he is trying to impress as a player of all jazz idioms, he'll never master or even have a clue about what improvisation is all about.

give me Ingrid any day of the week but seriously give me my guy Malaby or Ullman or Dunmall or Baars or McPhee on their poor days. These guys play and play more and often go down routes they don't even know exist - and a few of them often fail or run into dead ends. Irabagon never runs into anything except a standard solution that ends with a cheer from the crowd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yo on McPhee. Joe has something very special.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't intend to interrupt the discussion here... Just to talk about another new release, the new Ganelin trio record in front of their first Chinese audience released on Leo Records is extremely enjoyable, and the sound is excellent. I understand Leo Feigin who believes it will become one of the best records in his catalogue.

CD LR 717/718

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Steve Reynolds said:

I'm gonna say this about Irabagon. I was initially taken by his extreme command of the horn and was initially impressed with the record on not two records called Absolute Zero where he plays alto saxophone with two very fine Portuguese dudes including the great Gabriel Ferrandini and then I saw him with Helias and Altschul and it was a fine couple of sets except there was something scratching at me or needling me that something was somehow missing. The technically daunting boppish piece they played was like wow but I realized even by the next morning that that piece was hollow at the core. 

Then I bought that record Foxy which after getting to about the 50 minute point, I realized it was some sort of joke or scam. Certainly the worst recording I've heard over the last 20 years that includes good musicians. Then I revisited Absolute Zero and I realized he plays the whole fucking time.

last straw for now was last year - trio with Mary Halvorsen & Nasheet Waits. Awesome first set mostly because of the guitarist and drummer. Ends at typical time / about 10:10 or so. They come back at 11:05 and play 30 minutes. Again strong playing from the others and OK from Irabagon but I've lost the desire to listen to him. I admit his actions effected me but I hear a bunch of all horse and no cattle. No voice of his own but he can "play" anything from straight ahead to free jazz - but for now I can't hear a note. He's a technical marvel who doesn't know what improvising is yet. And IMO, as long he is trying to impress as a player of all jazz idioms, he'll never master or even have a clue about what improvisation is all about.

give me Ingrid any day of the week but seriously give me my guy Malaby or Ullman or Dunmall or Baars or McPhee on their poor days. These guys play and play more and often go down routes they don't even know exist - and a few of them often fail or run into dead ends. Irabagon never runs into anything except a standard solution that ends with a cheer from the crowd

I just hated Foxy. Loathe some , not funny, just very irritating. I came to it having really enjoyed a MOPDTK release but Foxy put me right off Irabagon.  

Edited by Clunky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, mjazzg said:

the main discussion has mostly been about Laubrock in response to Allen Lowe's comments up thread. Ibragon's been mentioned in passing in that discussion but there's now concurrent posts about Altschul's 3dom band and folks' views on Ibragon in that. All very confusing.....and I've been following since the beginning of the discussion (I think) :)

Yeah, I've followed it and with some interest,  too. Just thought I'd ask if by "Ibragon" you all meant Irabagon :)

Edited by king ubu
Typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Clunky said:

I just hated Foxy. Loathe some , not funny, just very irritating. I came to it having really enjoyed a MOPDTK release but Foxy put me right off Irabagon.  

My wife won't go see him again as she thought it was "disgusting" that he made us wait an extra 30 minutes to hear the second set. To top it off, she said it should have just been a duo as she thought (and thinks) Mary Halvorsen & Nasheet Waits are beyond brilliant - thoughts which I am thoroughly in agreement with. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the meantime, a European tour that frustratingly does not take in the uk. Are our promoters asleep??

 

Kris Davis' Capricorn Climber European tour

Kris Davis (piano) Ingrid Laubrock (tenor saxophone), Mat Maneri (viola), Eivind Opsvik (double bass) and Tom Rainey (drums) 

11/6  Club Manufaktur, Schorndorf/Germany 
11/8  Vrijstaat-O, Oostende/Belgium 
11/9  Strasbourg, France
11/10 La Dynamo, Pantin/France 
11/11 Marburg/Germany 
11/13 Improviser's residence/ Moers
11/14 Spielboden, Dornbirn/Austria
 
 

 

Meander round Europe, settle down for a good meal, then bleat about the cheap hotels...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.