Why are these kind of gigs even organized?

[Hardbopjazz]

In the past few years there have been several shows at the various clubs in NYC tailed around successful jazz recordings from jazz artists from the past. For example, over the summer of 2012 I saw McCoy Tyner and Charles Tolliver performing Cotrane's album "Ascension". It was so boring. I am a fan of both Tyner and Tolliver Next week at the Jazz Standard there will be group performing Ornette Coleman's recording, "Free Jazz." Personally, I don't find these shows that exciting. Are these shows really that successful?

• ORNETTE COLEMAN'S FREE JAZZ REVISITED
  

ORNETTE COLEMAN'S FREE JAZZ REVISITED

Alto saxophonist and composer Ornette Coleman (who had “roused more controversy in the jazz world than any musician since Charlie Parker,” according to John S. Wilson in The New York Times) assembled a “double quartet” comprised of himself and Eric Dolphy on alto saxophones, Freddie Hubbard and Don Cherry on trumpets, bassists Charlie Haden and Scott LaFaro, and drummers Billy Higgins and Ed Blackwell. On December 21, 1960 at the Atlantic Records studio in midtown Manhattan, this ensemble recorded Free Jazz – an album that astonished the music world with its radical spirit and improvisational audacity. “Aside from a predetermined order of featured soloists and several brief transition signals cued by Coleman, the entire piece was created spontaneously, right on the spot,” Steve Huey later wrote at Allmusic.com. “…Jazz had long prided itself on reflecting American freedom and democracy and, with Free Jazz, Coleman simply took those ideals to the next level. A staggering achievement.” Last year, Jazz Standard presented a new interpretation of John Coltrane’s Ascension that knocked out audiences and critics alike. Tonight – for one night only – Jazz Standard presents an all–star tribute to Ornette Coleman and Free Jazz. This show is certain to be one of the highlights of the 2013 jazz year – make your reservations now!

Jaleel Shaw – alto saxophone

Joe Lovano – tenor saxophone

Jeremy Pelt – trumpet

Tim Hagans – trumpet

Ben Allison – bass

Lonnie Plaxico – bass

Billy Drummond – drums

Matt Wilson – drums

Edited January 4, 2013 by Hardbopjazz

[paul secor]

To me, it's the equivalent of a 1950's dixieland group doing a concert of Louis' Hot Five recordings. You can't go home again - especially if you never lived there.

[Hardbopjazz]

That remeinds me, Louis Amrstrong's Hot 5 and Hot 7 was performed last week at JALC by Wynton. This is another example of one of these gigs.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Hardbopjazz

[bertrand]

'Free Jazz' and 'Ascension' are both compositions by Ornette and 'trane respectively. Are you saying no one can ever play these compositions again just because they each fill up an album by themselves?

I agree that the marketing on these is ill-advised (recreating an album and such), but if you think if it in terms of playing classic jazz compositions, there is a lot of justification in doing this. A big factor is also the choice of personnel. 'Let's throw in a couple of superstars in there' is stupid, especially if the superstars are really the wrong choice for the music. Also, trying to sound like the record is stupid.

Personally, I would like to hear the composition 'Free Jazz' played by Ben Allison and Matt Wilson.

Bertrand.

[JSngry]

Never underestimate the money to be made from tourist attractions.

[A Lark Ascending]

Most people who go to concerts like to hear something familiar. Notice the temperature in an audience rise when something they know is played. When Ornette Coleman played Cheltenham a few years back it was mainly unfamiliar music, gaining the reverent applause of an engaged audience. When he started 'Lonely Woman' the excitement level in the audience jumped up a notch or two.

Check the bills of your nearest classical concert hall - I bet most of what is played will be at least 50 years old, probably 100.

Concerts with a 'tag' on them - 'celebrates the music of', 'a tribute to' etc - provide a convenient marketing focus that can connect to that desire for familiarity.

I'm not sure someone going out to hear Wynton playing Louis or Alan Barnes playing Art Pepper is actually that different to those of us who prefer to listen to 10, 20, 50 or 100 year old jazz records. We know we're going to get to listen to something we have a strong chance of connecting to, that we have a historical and critical context for. That's easier than listening to a set of musicians that we're totally unfamiliar with.

I've been to 'past themed' concerts like this which have been dull, others that have brought the music really alive and sent me home wanting to listen to the originals, and others still that, whilst using the music of the past as a starting point, have taken it somewhere else.

It does reflect a particular focus in our contemporary culture on the past - you see it in cinema remakes, period dramas etc, endless box sets of past masters etc.

But in the end the high profile of such themed concerts should be judged on whether they provide you with an entertaining evening. No-one has to go to them. And they are not stopping other musicians with an eye on the future from making music in that direction.

[BillF]

It's all to do with postmodernism, as Alyn Shipton recognizes in his New History of Jazz.

[sgcim]

I avoid those concerts like the plague, unless it's something that can't miss.

My only positive experience was seeing Phil Woods and the Manhattan School of Music Jazz Ensemble recreate Gil Evans' "New Bottles,Old Wine" (Phil played the Cannonball parts- you can't go wrong w/ PW).

On the rock and/or roll side of things, I saw "Forever Changes" by Love recreated by Arthur Lee and Baby Lemonade, but maybe that doesn't count, because Arthur Lee was the original vocalist with Love.

[marcello]

Never underestimate the money to be made from tourist attractions.

Jim's right.

This kind of programing, usually with no rehearsal, brings a certain customer in the door. And because there is little thought, planning or conception, beyond the "tribute' hook, it's boring like Tom says.

[bertrand]

Equating a recreation of 'Free Jazz' with a tourist attraction along the lines of 'Mamma Mia' is somewhat of an exaggeration, IMHO.

Bertrand.

[A Lark Ascending]

I recall seeing Tommy Smith and the Scottish National Jazz Orchestra recreate 'Such Sweet Thunder' some years back (the same team also do Miles Ahead and Birth of the Cool) and enjoying it greatly.

Did it push the envelope? Of course not. It was musicians getting a chance to enjoy playing music they clearly loved. And for listeners who like that music to get to hear it in a live setting, fully aware that it was not the real thing. From a marketing viewpoint it had a label to make it draw in a wider crowd than might have been achieved otherwise.

I wasn't aware of a different 'type' of audience at that concert.

[Larry Kart]

'Free Jazz' and 'Ascension' are both compositions by Ornette and 'trane respectively. Are you saying no one can ever play these compositions again just because they each fill up an album by themselves?

I agree that the marketing on these is ill-advised (recreating an album and such), but if you think if it in terms of playing classic jazz compositions, there is a lot of justification in doing this. A big factor is also the choice of personnel. 'Let's throw in a couple of superstars in there' is stupid, especially if the superstars are really the wrong choice for the music. Also, trying to sound like the record is stupid.

Personally, I would like to hear the composition 'Free Jazz' played by Ben Allison and Matt Wilson.

Bertrand.

Yes, both "Free Jazz" and Ascension" have composed frameworks/sign posts, but don't the improvised contributions/interactions of the specific players at their best not only make up the majority of each work but also serve as the chief points of interest, compared to the relatively loose weave of the composed parts?

BTW, I never heard it (don't believe it was recorded, only performed), but my favorite "loony tune" idea of the sort we've been talking about is David Murray's orchestration of Paul Gonsalves "Dimineundo and Crescendo in Blue" solo from Newport.

[sonnymax]

In the spring of 2011, the Jazz Standard presented "Impulse Nights", a series of five concerts to comemorate that label's 50th anniversary. I came down from Boston to hear Roy Hargrove lead an ensemble playing Oliver Nelson’s The Blues and the Abstract Truth . The next evening, I attended Ryan Truesdell's big band performance of Gil Evans’ Out of the Cool. I enjoyed both concerts, and it was obvious to me that the artists involved had devoted a good deal of "thought, planning and conception" to the music. I had no illusions about what I was going to experience, and I never felt the need to compare these performances with the originals. As another member has commented, such performances are successful if they are entertaining. No one's trying to rewrite history, just play good music.

[sidewinder]

When Ornette Coleman played Cheltenham a few years back it was mainly unfamiliar music, gaining the reverent applause of an engaged audience. When he started 'Lonely Woman' the excitement level in the audience jumped up a notch or two.

Thats as I remember it too.

[marcello]

In the spring of 2011, the Jazz Standard presented "Impulse Nights", a series of five concerts to comemorate that label's 50th anniversary. I came down from Boston to hear Roy Hargrove lead an ensemble playing Oliver Nelson’s The Blues and the Abstract Truth . The next evening, I attended Ryan Truesdell's big band performance of Gil Evans’ Out of the Cool. I enjoyed both concerts, and it was obvious to me that the artists involved had devoted a good deal of "thought, planning and conception" to the music. I had no illusions about what I was going to experience, and I never felt the need to compare these performances with the originals. As another member has commented, such performances are successful if they are entertaining. No one's trying to rewrite history, just play good music.

The thought, planning and conception makes all the difference, and I'm sure that Tommy Smith, who may be a genius, provided the same framework and exception for his concert(s)

That kind of recreation not what Hardbop or I have mentioned. It's the slap-dash, thrown together combinations that we are talking about. By the way, have you heard Tommy Smith's "Rhapsody In Blue" recording? Now there is performance that makes a old piece of work, and maybe a tired one, new and exciting again.

[bertrand]

How can you tell which are going to be slapdash and which are going to be well-thought out and carefully planned? That 'Free Jazz' thing might work or it might not, but there's nothing specifically indicating to me that it cannot work out. There is no one listed in the personnel who is not a talented, hard-working artist who has paid his dues. Lovano is a bit of an outsider in this, but Dewey Redman is a major influnce, so really he does fit in in the concept.

I'm almost sorry now I did not plan to go see this. Ben Allison is one of my favorite musicians working these days from the 'younger' generation.

Bertrand.

Edited January 7, 2013 by bertrand

[robertoart]

'Free Jazz' and 'Ascension' are both compositions by Ornette and 'trane respectively. Are you saying no one can ever play these compositions again just because they each fill up an album by themselves?

I agree that the marketing on these is ill-advised (recreating an album and such), but if you think if it in terms of playing classic jazz compositions, there is a lot of justification in doing this. A big factor is also the choice of personnel. 'Let's throw in a couple of superstars in there' is stupid, especially if the superstars are really the wrong choice for the music. Also, trying to sound like the record is stupid.

Personally, I would like to hear the composition 'Free Jazz' played by Ben Allison and Matt Wilson.

Bertrand.

Yes, both "Free Jazz" and Ascension" have composed frameworks/sign posts, but don't the improvised contributions/interactions of the specific players at their best not only make up the majority of each work but also serve as the chief points of interest, compared to the relatively loose weave of the composed parts?

BTW, I never heard it (don't believe it was recorded, only performed), but my favorite "loony tune" idea of the sort we've been talking about is David Murray's orchestration of Paul Gonsalves "Dimineundo and Crescendo in Blue" solo from Newport.

Randy Sandke should have done it instead.

[AllenLowe]

Randy can do everything. Not kidding. Love that guy.

[marcello]

How can you tell which are going to be slapdash and which are going to be well-thought out and carefully planned?

Bertrand.

Sometimes you may know a little about it from the word of mouth. Sometime the same players or organization have done them before and you know from past experiences whether it's worthwhile to give a listen. The Blue Note has done many with McCoy and others that I wouldn't go to, for example. All of these factors can give you a idea if the program is going to be worthwhile, or if it's going to be a thrown together set of players picking tunes on stage, playing with little real energy.

There's going to be a Dexter Gordon Tribute coming up soon. Dexter's widow and manager Maxine Gordon is fully involved, and the musical director is George Cables. Sounds good.

Edited January 7, 2013 by marcello

[Dan Gould]

There's going to be a Dexter Gordon Tribute coming up soon. Dexter's widow and manager Maxine Gordon is fully involved, and the musical director is George Cables. Sounds good.

Maxine Gordon or George Cables' participation strikes me as utterly irrelevant. What's going to happen here? Some pick up group will jam on some Dex tunes, or tunes that Dex played often but didn't actually compose, someone will get "You've Changed" as a ballad feature, someone else will get "Darn That Dream" ... this epitomizes what Tom was talking about. I'd stick with the records.

[Larry Kart]

How can you tell which are going to be slapdash and which are going to be well-thought out and carefully planned?

Bertrand.

Sometimes you may know a little about it from the word of mouth. Sometime the same players or organization have done them before and you know from past experiences whether it's worthwhile to give a listen. The Blue Note has done many with McCoy and others that I wouldn't go to, for example. All of these factors can give you a idea if the program is going to be worthwhile, or if it's going to be a thrown together set of players picking tunes on stage, playing with little real energy.

There's going to be a Dexter Gordon Tribute coming up soon. Dexter's widow and manager Maxine Gordon is fully involved, and the musical director is George Cables. Sounds good.

And the role of Dexter will be played by Eric Alexander?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

How can you tell which are going to be slapdash and which are going to be well-thought out and carefully planned?

Bertrand.

Sometimes you may know a little about it from the word of mouth. Sometime the same players or organization have done them before and you know from past experiences whether it's worthwhile to give a listen. The Blue Note has done many with McCoy and others that I wouldn't go to, for example. All of these factors can give you a idea if the program is going to be worthwhile, or if it's going to be a thrown together set of players picking tunes on stage, playing with little real energy.

There's going to be a Dexter Gordon Tribute coming up soon. Dexter's widow and manager Maxine Gordon is fully involved, and the musical director is George Cables. Sounds good.

And the role of Dexter will be played by Eric Alexander?

One can only hope. He'd do a great job of it.

BTW, the chance to hear most of these classic Jazz recordings played live by *anyone* may be a once in a lfetime event for a lot of us "youngsters" (the under 50 crowd). Just because some of you saw Coltrane play "Ascension" live doesn't mean no one else wants to see it and hear it live again today. Ditto for a Dexter Gordon tribute. I've never seen Dexter Gordon live and I never will. He's dead, but his music doen't have to be. My only option to hear Dexter Gordon's music in a live setting is seeing it played by someone alive today who can play it like him.

[Larry Kart]

And the role of Dexter will be played by Eric Alexander?

FWIW, I was being ironic.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

And the role of Dexter will be played by Eric Alexander?

FWIW, I was being ironic.

Really? I would never have guessed!

On the other hand, I was being very serious. I even started looking around for information on this Dexter Gordon tribute tour to see if they were able to get Eric.

[JSngry]

And the role of Dexter will be played by Eric Alexander?

FWIW, I was being ironic.

If so, they would have to beat him in and about the head several times (or more) in order to get his time in even the remotely semi-correct zone. And that's for relatively clean Dexter. To get loaded Dexter, there might be unethical medical procedures required.

George Cables might not be up to that much heavy lifting. Maxine Gordon, otoh...

Bebop is the music of the future!