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BFT 106 discussion thread


Big Al

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In terms of pitch (I would say "tuning", but that has different implications for guitar, I know), it most sounds like Gabor Szabo. Tone, though, not so much?

And from Al's clue...if not John Klemmer on tenor then maybe Tom Scott?

But I don't know of any collaboration between them that would sound like this.

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Yeah, the only thing I can come up with at the moment is that it almost sounds like he's doing a percussive thing with his right hand, closer to the bridge, and possible deadening the strings a bit with the base of his palm. Definitely has some tricks in his bag. The right hand technique at 1:49-1:52 reminds me of Billy Butler also (in addition to the big tone), but I can't quite step out on that limb yet.

In terms of pitch (I would say "tuning", but that has different implications for guitar, I know), it most sounds like Gabor Szabo. Tone, though, not so much?

I've really never been a follower of Szabo. I'm not even sure why. At any rate, I tried listening to some samples of him, and I wasn't hearing a lot of tonal similarity. It's the breadth... the "bigness", fatness, crispness throughout the range, and shimmering upper register that's really hitting me. This guy is either a tone assassin, or he was just having a really good day in that particular studio. I still want to say it's an 18" guitar (less common than a 17" or 16" body), which ought to narrow things down, but... goddamit... :)

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Gabor had that "out of tune in tune" thing going on big time, like this guitarist does. Later Tiny Grimes was like that, too, in a different way. But no, the tones aren't particularly similar.

Billy Butler seemed a likely suspect to me as well, but I can't find any match.

That tenor player is the wild card. I think it's their date, and it still sounds more like John Klemmer than anybody else to me, but even that's not 100%. It's somebody who's not afraid to bend notes in the upper register in a Hodges-y manner, but who also isn't afraid to tackle a nine bar form and whole-tone scales.

You would think that would narrow it down, but NOOOOOOOOO....

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I don't know what surprises me more: the level of curiosity for this track, or the fact that it hasn't been ID'd. By that, I mean I put that on here without any pretense of stumping anyone: I just love this track and the album from which it came which, if it's any help, gives absolutely zero indication the direction the sax player would eventually take.

Not John Klemmer, then?

Actually, yes, and he's the leader! I'm curious, though: what made you rule him out based on this? I mean, I've heard some Klemmer records from the 70's which sound NOTHING like this!

Figuring out the rest of this track oughta be fairly easy. I hope! :)

Edited by Big Al
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Just couldn't find anything on AMG that matched up, that's all.

But my initial reaction was in part this:

That second cut on the first disc is the damndest thing I've heard in quite a while...all I can hear is some weird John Klemmer/Chico Hamilton/Albert Stinson thing that I know never happened...The slurry, full, fat upper register stuff sure sounds like John Klemmer, but if Klemmer ever made this record, I've never even come close to hearing it until now. And if he did, I want the rest of the record, like, yesterday - and I'm not a John Klemmer fan at all.

Now I gotta go back and look at Involvement again, because that's the one I thought it would be on....

Damn Al, you TOUGH! :g:g:g

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Ok, it is a cut from Involvement, "Passion Food". AMG has the time and title wrong. And the wrong samples for several tunes.

Also, the Verve CD transposes sides one and two as listed on the album itself. But the liner notes discuss the music in the order that the CD presents the songs.

Which I can tell you, because I'm looking at and listening to it right now, because I own it...the Mike Weil Syndrome strikes again! :g

Sam Thomas on guitar, Melvin "Funky Skull" Jackson on bass, and the GREAT Wilbur Campbell on drums.

Klemmer has always had a pretty identifiable sound really, especially his upper register, so yeah, I figured it was him, and never really strayed too far form not feeling so. My downfall was twofold - trusting AMG, and not checking my own collection. Lesson learned, hopefully.

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"Passion Food" from 'Involvement', his first album. Somebody named Sam Thomas on guitar. I have wooden ears, but am good with a google search.

Alllll...righty then. (nice work, felser) Color me dumbfounded. My mind is in the process of being blown here, and I haven't even gotten around to thinking about the John Klemmer part. "Sam Thomas", eh? Sam Thomas? With tone like that, I've never heard of the guy? (afaicr, anyway). Wow. MUST research this.

Al, if you've got anything on Sam Thomas, I can't wait for the reveal. No, I mean literally- I cannot wait. :)

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Jim, if you don't already have Involvement, you might want to pick it up. Thomas only plays on four of the seven cuts, but Jodie Christian plays on the other three, always a plus, and the whole album is solid.

And Thomas' solo on "Passion food" is no fluke. His playing on the other three cuts is equally ear-catching.

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So far here is what I have after one time through. I haven't looked at the posts yet

01. The is the Montgomery Brothers. I have this record.

10. I am sure I have this one. Is it Donald Byrd and Kenny Burrell?

12. This has to be Sonny Stitt. I have this record too. Don't recall the title of the recording.

Gonna listen once more before I look at the other responses.

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Jim, if you don't already have Involvement, you might want to pick it up. Thomas only plays on four of the seven cuts, but Jodie Christian plays on the other three, always a plus, and the whole album is solid.

And Thomas' solo on "Passion food" is no fluke. His playing on the other three cuts is equally ear-catching.

Thanks. I was just listening to samples at the iTunes store. "Ear-catching" is apt, although so far, his single-line playing isn't hitting me like those fat tasty chords on 'Passion Food' did.

So, he worked with Jug, and Dexter (!). I'm blanking on that, in terms of whether I should be familiar with his name (at least).

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His is very much a "neighborhood" sound, if you know what I mean, in the sense of speaking with a strong accent in distinctive dialect. In other words, he sounds like his roots are in blues-based musics, not "standards" and such.

I love guys like that...the things they hit on are so...non-cliched. B'Nois King from around here is a player like that. He'll play bebop, R&B, deep blues, and all in the same voice. You can't help but listen.

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Listening to Sam's solo on 'You Don't Know What Love Is', he plays a nice chord sequence, but his tone isn't as fat. Seems to me that 'Passion Food' may have been a magic six-and-a-half minutes in terms of the sound he got. Guitar recordings can be that way. Anyway, this is fun, and even though it will no doubt be tough to figure it out, I'd still like to know what instrument he was using...

His is very much a "neighborhood" sound, if you know what I mean, in the sense of speaking with a strong accent in distinctive dialect. In other words, he sounds like his roots are in blues-based musics, not "standards" and such.

I love guys like that...the things they hit on are so...non-cliched. B'Nois King from around here is a player like that. He'll play bebop, R&B, deep blues, and all in the same voice. You can't help but listen.

Absolutely.

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Whatever - that tune is hip as shit - a nine bar thing. That extra bar at the end makes everybody take their time from chorus to chorus, and everybody involved is playing in the moment every step of the way. Just a glorious thing.

I've been listening to this all day... without actually playing it! That's a good thing, though. I think I may need to learn this one. Parts of it have been reminding me of something, and I think it's "A Child Is Born" (but this adds some nice harmonic layers and interesting melodic twists and turns).

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Back on track at last...

DISC ONE

TRACK ONE - Not disciplined enough to kept from reading some commentary and not others, so just let me say that I would have never guessed this one. Very nice, especially the piano playing.

TRACK TWO - Well now!

TRACK THREE - Not as mundane as a causal listening might suggest...is that an oboe in there? Either that or a really reedy soprano. I'm going oboe. And that secondary them sounds like a "hee-haw" so I wonder if the composition is somehow donkey or otherwise "Western" themed? Trombone player sounds like Jimmy Cleveland until he doesn't. The whole thing is very controlled, but I sense more for programmatic reasons than commercial ones. And then right at the very end, somebody changes to tenor to play lead w/trombone, which had up until that point only been heard in solo..I don't know that there would be this much subtle variations and textures if the aim was just commercialism. The way the drums come in and out, that's anti-commercial right there! Nice cut, one that doesn't ask you to think too much, but rewards you when you do. Not an easy task, that.

TRACK FOUR - Sounds more "Latin" than "jazz" in execution, although vice-versa in concept...and weirdly enough sounds in many parts like some hymn we sang in church a lot back when I was a kid. Just a wild-assed guess - Tito Puente featured on vibes? Another one where the arrangement is controlled but highly variated. (I know, the word is really "variegated", but I like "variated" better).

TRACK FIVE - Another one where I couldn't help but read the commentary...my guess before then would have been early Herbie Mann, which could be linked to Fathead, which could then be linked to James Clay. So it wouldn't have been that wrong, would it? :g Anyway, for some reason, this is one James Clay session that I've never picked up on. .probably should remedy that.

TRACK SIX - Had high hopes for this one once they got past the pretty basic modal-y noodling of the intro, seemed like the composition was going to go some different places, but...not really. That tenor tone is very familiar, kinda reminds me of Dave Young or Paul Plummer on te old George Russell sides, that stone-faced sobriety thing, but I don't think it's them, and I draw a blank past them. Very competent overall, and definitely sets a mood, but overall seems just a little superficial for my tastes, at least at this time.

TRACK SEVEN - Santana, from Wings Of Delight, with WayneAndHerbieAndRonAndTony. Santana talks about Coltrane a lot, and I know he means it, but his stuff seems more out of Pharoah than Trane, some very basic-but-cool changes and melodies. Not a problem for me, becuase the guys's always been more about "feel" than "depth", and that's not a problem for me, never has been. I remember when this record first cam out, me and a buddy were somking togheter listening to it, and I said about Wayne on one tune, "does it sound to you like Wayne's kinda not really digging too deep on this?" and the guy laughed and said, "hey man, he's just being WAYNE SHORTER, it's that time for him", and yeah, I suppose it was, but...this was after everybody was saying Where Has Wayne Gone and all that and yet this was the first record that had me wondering the same thing. And really, it holds true for HerbieAndRonAndTony too, they're all sort of role-playing.

But in spite of that, Is still like the record. They might be role-playing, but they're all honest roles getting played, so hey..Santana. Saul Goode like that.

TRACK SEVEN - I've never cared much for Johnny Smith, and this is not changing my mind. Even a little. :g

Kudos for two discs worth of good, and often enough great, music, Al. Sorry I couldn't follow along with the 4-sided Double LP thing, but I've been having to use a computer w/o a functional CD-ROM drive. Had to send the DL link to my daughter, who then burnt the two discs. But I dig the concept, as well as most of the music. Thanks again!

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Playing ketchup, because this could take a while and it could get all over ya if you're not careful!

BFT106

Side 1 #1 MJQ? Yes, surely. Not one I’ve heard before. Oh, is there a guitar in this somewhere? Oh yes, now he’s started soloing. So it AIN’T the MJQ. But it’s the MJQ with a guitarist who isn’t Laurindo Almeida. No, it’s Milt with some other geezers, who shall be nameless. Though the pianner player sometimes sounds like John Lewis and sometimes doesn’t. The guitarist plays a bit too clangy a sound for my liking, but otherwise this is nice. Second thoughts, Montgomery Brothers or Mastersounds. But I always associate Wes with a smoother style than this (perhaps because I have a lot of his Verve and CTI albums :))

Your powers of reasoning are awesome!

Side 1 #2 Bossa nova a la TTK, not a la Seeline. I’m sure I almost recognise the tenor player as being one I don’t listen to much. Ditto the guitarist. I keep wanting to say the tenor player is Harold Land, but my better judgement won’t let me :) There’s a vibes player in this who’s doing hardly anything at all.

Your better judgement is correct!

Side 1 #4 So, is there a vibes player on this? Yes. And I know this one, I think. No I don’t but that sound to start off with is very familiar, kinda Dukish (Pearson, that is). The whole thing sounds like a Pearson job. And the vibes player surely is Booby.

Sorry, neither Duke nor Booby! :)

Well, putting the dog to bed now, at the end of side 1. Side 2 will no doubt feature organists from Arkansas.

Side 2 #1 Oh, Mediafire told me this was here somewhere, but I’ve got it anyway. It’s ‘New Delhi’ by James Clay, of course. And there’s Vic Feldman on vibes on it. Dunno which take it is :D

Correct! I'll still give you the point! :lol:

Side 2 #2 A vibes player on this too? Not yet :) The pianist sounds a bit like Jack Wilson. But I don’t get the band. There are things in there that sound like Gerald Wilson but, overall, it’s not a GW job. Actually, the trumpet player reminds me of GW. And the alto player is reminiscent of Anthony Ortega. But it’s still not a GW job. I give up. Nice work, though. I’d LIKE it to be Gerald Wilson with a smallish band.

Well, it's a smallish band, but not GW.

Side 2 #3 Oh, I know this guitarist, I think. The soprano sax is a bit familiar, too. Is the guitarist Orhan Demir? I think I recognise the bass player – some Englishman called Holland. So it surely can’t be Orhan Demir. This is very nice.

It's not Holland, and I've never heard of Demir, so I'm open to any recommendations you have. :)

Side 2 #4 Bing? ‘Colorado’. No, it’s not Bing. But there’s a vibes player in there :D Actually, the singer seems a bit on the elderly side, so it could be Bing. Nice guitarist who is probably very familiar in a jazz framework.

It's not Bing, but I will tell you that when I first heard this, I also thought it was Bing. But more on that when the Reveal comes. Suffice to say, you nailed the reason for this track's existence on the BFT!

Side 3 #1 Latin groove; very nice. I really like the trumpet solo; very simple, like Melvin Lastie’s work. The song appears to be a Latinisation of Jr Walker’s ‘Shotgun’. I think Willie Bobo did a version of that. Lastie worked with him on one of his Verve LPs. Like that honking little tenor bit. Ace groove. Yes, this is from ‘Spanish grease’, and it IS Mel Lastie on cornet.

Bing! Bing! Bing! Or rather, ding! Ding! Ding! Correct on all accounts!

Side 3 #2 Oh, I know this one, surely. Or do I just know the intro? And Stanley. With Duke Pearson, undoubtedly. But I find I don’t know this, unless it’s from ‘Return of the prodigal son’ or ‘Bluish bag’, neither of which I’ve played enough to remember note for note. Blue Mitchell on trumpet. Oh Gawd a guitarist! Fuck, it’s Grant Green! What the bleeding hell IS this? Well, it ain’t from either of those Turrentine albums. Is this a bonus track off the ‘Rough n tumble’ session that I haven’t got and don’t know about? There’s nothing in the Grant Green discography to support this, except ‘Rough n tumble’ and no bonus cuts on that. I don’t get it.

No, but once again you DID get the reason for THIS track's existence on this BFT! Your reaction to this track mirrored exactly my reaction upon hearing this track the first time! Again, more details when comes the Reveal!

Side 3 #3 Another Latin groove. I definitely HAVEN’T got this. Sounds as if it ought to be Ray Bryant. And ought to be in my collection.

Ray Bryant's a good guess, and although it's not correct, I think I could see me guessing Ray if I were hearing this on someone else's BFT!

Side 3 #4 Sinny Stott, I’ll be danged. Not one I know, but I’ve got about 80 Stott albums, so maybe I have it somewhere. But I think I’d remember this; the rhythm section, particularly the drummer, isn’t quite right with Sonny in some way, though they’re fine when Sonny drops out for the piano solo. This isn’t really Latin but the drummer seems to be coming from there, in some way.

This always happens on my BFT's: the tracks I think will stump everyone are the ones everyone gets; and the tracks I think are relatively easy are the ones that drive everyone nuts!!! I guess that's the gamble when you put a Stitt track on a BFT, but.... eh, I'll save THAT for the Reveal as well!

Bedtime for me, now, at the end of side 3.

Side 4 #1 Electric piano and another Latin groove. The pianist doesn’t seem to be saying much, I think I’d rather hear him on real piano, but the cowbell player is really grooving nicely. Oh, there’s an organ player in this. And I bet it’s Frank Anderson.

Hee hee hee! Sorry to say there's only one keyboard player! Just the reaction I was hoping for!

Side 4 #2 Intro to ‘Bread & butter’ (or ‘High heel sneakers’). Nice growly trombone, to start with, then he gets a bit bland. He’s probably a modernist who was encouraged by the producer to do something commercial, at least to start his solo. Good hotel foyer music.

So far, this is probably the kindest thing anyone's said about this track! :D

Side 4 #3 Oh, ‘Way back home’; I do love simple stuff. So who’s this. There’s an alto player who sounds like Hank Crawford in there, but this ain’t Hank’s version of the tune and I can’t find that he was a sideman on anyone else’s version. So I don’t know what it is. But it’s lurvely.

‘Course, it could be the original by the JCs, which for some reason I never bought (from ‘Old socks, something something’) but it doesn’t sound like Wilton Felder on sax and the band’s too big. But it’s apparently the right length.

[cue Bugs Bunny voice] Ehhhhhhhh, could be, Doc!

Side 4 #4 Bop alto. With guitar interweaving. Don’t know any of these players. Sound like recent guys doing Tristano. Good thing it’s only two and a half minutes.

Tristano yes, recent no.

Side 4 #5 Those lovely whispering ends to the lines put me in mind of Ben Webster, but I don’t think it’s him; I don’t think this tune is the sort of ballad he’d do; it’s not positive enough. But it does sound like him. Could be Harold Ashby. Towards the end, it does sound more like Ben. Very, very, nice, whoever it is.

:w

Anyway, this is mostly extremely nice music I’ve liked a lot. And some cuts I’m dying to find out about. (No Christmas songs, though :D) Can I hang on until the end of the month?

Thanks Al.

MG

My pleasure, and I'm thrilled you enjoyed it! Answers available if you're really REALLY curious! Just drop me a PM!

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Damn! Got to think again. I was SURE it was GG!

MG

After lunch. Not Blue Mitchell, either. It's Donald Byrd - 'Bossa' from 'Up'.

Oh lord.

And it turns out that I've got that Montgomery Bros track, on 'Fingerpickin''.

Ah well.

Correct all around! I know what you mean about having a track that ends up on a BFT!

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