Most interesting/favorite 'Wayne Shorter' BN

[erwbol]

I wasn't aware of that rejected date. Could it be any good?

Wayne Shorter (tenor saxophone) Barbara Burton (vibraphone, bells, percussion) McCoy Tyner (piano) Miroslav Vitous (bass) Alphonse Mouzon (drums, percussion)

A&R Recording Studio, NYC, October 13, 1970

tk.3 Pt. 1: The Creation Blue Note rejected

tk.4 Pt. 2: B. Because -

tk.5 Pt. 3: Cee -

tk.7 Pt. 4: Dee -

tk.8 Pt. 5: Effe -

BTW, Wayne's latest, Without A Net, is also missing, but I was thinking of albums that could benefit from such a release.

Edited October 14, 2013 by erwbol

[mikeweil]

FWIW, the Lord Disco has April 3, 1970 for Moto Grosso Feio and August 26, 1970 for Odyssey Of Iska.

[bertrand]

The liner notes of Moto Grosso Feio have a whole story regarding the hunt for this session through boxes of tape - IIRC, they seem to imply that Wayne himself was involved in the hunt When the tape was found, Wayne remembered it as being recorded the day after his birthday. I always assumed he confused it with Odyssey Of Iska, and this stuck for a while. Not sure if Michael Cuscuna already had access to the tape logs at this point. I think this was in the late 70s, and Moto Grosso came out in the mid-70s.

Bertrand.

[JSngry]

1974, to be exact. To me, the mid-70s didn't start until 1975, b/c that was the first full year that Nixon was out of office. And the late-70s didn't really get here until funk became Disco and Disco became Top 40.

[bertrand]

I thought it was 1974. I'm pretty sure Cuscuna did not have the session logs that early, but it could not have been too long after that. Didn't those brown two-fers come out around 1976? Tricky Dick was safely gone by then.

Bertrand.

[JSngry]

1975 was the first set.

[Larry Kart]

Voted for "The All Seeing Eye," but I prefer "Introducing Wayne Shorter" (VeeJay) to any of the Blue Notes. Early Wayne was really "out there."

[J.A.W.]

Yep, those VeeJays tend to be overlooked, undeservedly in my view. I had the original LPs, but had to sell them. Picked up the Lee Morgan/Wayne Shorter VeeJay Mosaic when it came out.

[colinmce]

Good timing on the bump of this thread as I've been running through these albums the last couple weeks (though I don't own the last 4, the electric ones. No bias, just haven't gotten around to them). If you had asked me 3 weeks ago I'dve said Speak No Evil or Etc but now I think I'd say The Soothsayer.

Honestly I've never really warmed to Adam's Apple or The All-Seeing Eye. I find the latter too cluttered and the former a little dry-- I really don't like "502 Blues" or "El Gaucho" and much prefer "Footprints" on Miles Smiles ... I dunno, the record feels slight to me. Obviously many others disagree.

[xybert]

I need to check out more of the VeeJays; love Introducing Wayne Shorter.

I like all the Blue Notes that i've heard (haven't heard Odyssey or Moto), but i voted for Etcetera. Also have a soft spot for Schizophrenia. Lost from The Soothsayer has to be one of my all-time favourite album openers.

[David Ayers]

Going back over all this thread I have to say that I was (almost) ready to join Jim in the only superficially eccentric choice of Odyssey of Iska which really *is* a favorite listen of mine.

I guess part of the reason for that is I rate the early Miles/Shorter higher than Shorter's own LPs - I don't think any Shorter album matches E.S.P. Yet I want to love the Shorter BNs more than I do. Most of them I never upgraded from McMasters, probably I should and have another go. Apart from anything else, I'm not convinced by some of the line-ups - Tyner, Morgan, Hubbard, Spaulding, Fuller (!), even maybe have to say Elvin Jones are not really right. For me at least E.S.P. blows it all away.

[Head Man]

For me at least E.S.P. blows it all away.

I agree completely....my "desert island" disc, I've loved it from the day it was released and I've upgraded it at every opportunity.

[erwbol]

Going back over all this thread I have to say that I was (almost) ready to join Jim in the only superficially eccentric choice of Odyssey of Iska which really *is* a favorite listen of mine.

I guess part of the reason for that is I rate the early Miles/Shorter higher than Shorter's own LPs - I don't think any Shorter album matches E.S.P. Yet I want to love the Shorter BNs more than I do. Most of them I never upgraded from McMasters, probably I should and have another go. Apart from anything else, I'm not convinced by some of the line-ups - Tyner, Morgan, Hubbard, Spaulding, Fuller (!), even maybe have to say Elvin Jones are not really right. For me at least E.S.P. blows it all away.

For those who think the McMaster of Adam's Apple is dull compared to the RVG, this new HD Tracks release clearly shows how pumped up that RVG remaster is.

[Rooster_Ties]

I guess part of the reason for that is I rate the early Miles/Shorter higher than Shorter's own LPs - I don't think any Shorter album matches E.S.P. Yet I want to love the Shorter BNs more than I do. ... Apart from anything else, I'm not convinced by some of the line-ups - Tyner, Morgan, Hubbard, Spaulding, Fuller (!), even maybe have to say Elvin Jones are not really right. For me at least E.S.P. blows it all away.

Now that I think of it, that's probably why I rank Etcetera and All Seeing Eye at the very top of the bunch, specifically because of Herbie's involvement in both. I absolutely LOVE his (Herbie's) playing on both, especially All Seeing Eye.

I'm trying to think of other free-leaning dates with Herbie on acoustic piano, and other than these two (plus TW's Trainwreck), none are immediately coming to mind. Herbie's rhythmic approach on these free-ish acoustic dates is nothing short of fantastic, at least in my book.

[erwbol]

I guess part of the reason for that is I rate the early Miles/Shorter higher than Shorter's own LPs - I don't think any Shorter album matches E.S.P. Yet I want to love the Shorter BNs more than I do. ... Apart from anything else, I'm not convinced by some of the line-ups - Tyner, Morgan, Hubbard, Spaulding, Fuller (!), even maybe have to say Elvin Jones are not really right. For me at least E.S.P. blows it all away.

Now that I think of it, that's probably why I rank Etcetera and All Seeing Eye at the very top of the bunch, specifically because of Herbie's involvement in both. I absolutely LOVE his (Herbie's) playing on both, especially All Seeing Eye.

I'm trying to think of other free-leaning dates with Herbie on acoustic piano, and other than these two (plus TW's Trainwreck), none are immediately coming to mind. Herbie's rhythmic approach on these free-ish acoustic dates is nothing short of fantastic, at least in my book.

Did I misunderstand, or do you think of Tony Williams's Life Time and Spring as train wrecks?

Edited October 15, 2013 by erwbol

[Larry Kart]

I guess part of the reason for that is I rate the early Miles/Shorter higher than Shorter's own LPs - I don't think any Shorter album matches E.S.P. Yet I want to love the Shorter BNs more than I do. ... Apart from anything else, I'm not convinced by some of the line-ups - Tyner, Morgan, Hubbard, Spaulding, Fuller (!), even maybe have to say Elvin Jones are not really right. For me at least E.S.P. blows it all away.

Now that I think of it, that's probably why I rank Etcetera and All Seeing Eye at the very top of the bunch, specifically because of Herbie's involvement in both. I absolutely LOVE his (Herbie's) playing on both, especially All Seeing Eye.

I'm trying to think of other free-leaning dates with Herbie on acoustic piano, and other than these two (plus TW's Trainwreck), none are immediately coming to mind. Herbie's rhythmic approach on these free-ish acoustic dates is nothing short of fantastic, at least in my book.

Maybe not as "free" as the ones you mentioned, but Herbie takes a striking free-ish solo on "My Joy" on Bobby Hutcherson's "Oblique." That track also includes a jaw-dropping bass solo from the late Albert Stinson.

[J.A.W.]

I guess part of the reason for that is I rate the early Miles/Shorter higher than Shorter's own LPs - I don't think any Shorter album matches E.S.P. Yet I want to love the Shorter BNs more than I do. ... Apart from anything else, I'm not convinced by some of the line-ups - Tyner, Morgan, Hubbard, Spaulding, Fuller (!), even maybe have to say Elvin Jones are not really right. For me at least E.S.P. blows it all away.

Now that I think of it, that's probably why I rank Etcetera and All Seeing Eye at the very top of the bunch, specifically because of Herbie's involvement in both. I absolutely LOVE his (Herbie's) playing on both, especially All Seeing Eye.

I'm trying to think of other free-leaning dates with Herbie on acoustic piano, and other than these two (plus TW's Trainwreck), none are immediately coming to mind. Herbie's rhythmic approach on these free-ish acoustic dates is nothing short of fantastic, at least in my book.

Did I misunderstand, or do you think of Tony Williams's Life Time and Spring as train wrecks?

I think he's referring to an unissued Tyrone Washington Blue Note date, which, if I'm not mistaken, was described by Michael Cuscuna as a "train wreck":

Recorded in Englewood Cliffs, NJ on August 16, 1968

Tyrone Washington - tenor saxophone

Herbie Hancock - piano

Herbie Lewis - bass

Jack De Johnette - drums

Edited October 15, 2013 by J.A.W.

[Rooster_Ties]

Yes, "TW's Trainwreck" (which doesn't sound anything like a train wreck), is the aforementioned unissued Tyrone Washington session. (I think) Herbie's playing on its rivals that of the All Seeing Eye.

[.:.impossible]

Maybe not as "free" as the ones you mentioned, but Herbie takes a striking free-ish solo on "My Joy" on Bobby Hutcherson's "Oblique." That track also includes a jaw-dropping bass solo from the late Albert Stinson.

I was listening to this today. I wish there were more recordings featuring Albert Stinson.

[Guy Berger]

Going back over all this thread I have to say that I was (almost) ready to join Jim in the only superficially eccentric choice of Odyssey of Iska which really *is* a favorite listen of mine.

I guess part of the reason for that is I rate the early Miles/Shorter higher than Shorter's own LPs - I don't think any Shorter album matches E.S.P. Yet I want to love the Shorter BNs more than I do. Most of them I never upgraded from McMasters, probably I should and have another go. Apart from anything else, I'm not convinced by some of the line-ups - Tyner, Morgan, Hubbard, Spaulding, Fuller (!), even maybe have to say Elvin Jones are not really right. For me at least E.S.P. blows it all away.

Agreed. I'll take the Miles albums (and unofficial recordings) recorded with Wayne during 1964-69 over the Wayne BNs, easy. But I like the latter a lot too.

[king ubu]

Interesting point regarding E.S.P. ... regarding the Miles albums, "Miles Smiles" would be my pick - that one, to me, best exemplifies what this group was about, and Hancock is just amazing on it!

I assume my vote when to "Speak No Evil", but "Etcetera" and "Adam's Apple" would be strong contenders. (Why can't we see what we voted for?)

[colinmce]

Herbie also plays way free on Moncur's Some Other Stuff.

[Rooster_Ties]

Herbie also plays way free on Moncur's Some Other Stuff.

Yes, how could I forget! That's another fantastic date, and I love Herbie's planning on it too - which was also very similar to the others previously mentioned.

It's a shame that Herbie didn't play on more free-leaning dates. I really like his approach so much when he was pushed in that direction.

[Daniel A]

Going back over all this thread I have to say that I was (almost) ready to join Jim in the only superficially eccentric choice of Odyssey of Iska which really *is* a favorite listen of mine.

I guess part of the reason for that is I rate the early Miles/Shorter higher than Shorter's own LPs - I don't think any Shorter album matches E.S.P. Yet I want to love the Shorter BNs more than I do. Most of them I never upgraded from McMasters, probably I should and have another go. Apart from anything else, I'm not convinced by some of the line-ups - Tyner, Morgan, Hubbard, Spaulding, Fuller (!), even maybe have to say Elvin Jones are not really right. For me at least E.S.P. blows it all away.

Agreed. I'll take the Miles albums (and unofficial recordings) recorded with Wayne during 1964-69 over the Wayne BNs, easy. But I like the latter a lot too.

I really don't want to set Shorter's BN:s against his recordings with Miles. For me, his own albums help to define what Blue Note was about in the mid 60's and - regardless of what could have been in other company than "BN regulars" - make me understand (a part of) his musical universe.

I think I voted for 'Adam's Apple' when this thread appeared. I had to think for a while and probably considered 'Etcetera'. The more "theme-improvisation-theme"-based structure of the BN:s (compared to Miles' live recordings) offers my limited mind better insight into his compositions. For me personally, they also create a "mood" like only the finest and most engaging recordings I've heard do.

[David Ayers]

I played through all these again, finishing off with O of I, which needs a sonic upgrade (!).

I tried to hear each one as an album in itself. Not easy, given the obvious narrative(s).

Of the Elvin dates, I concluded Night Dreamer was the most powerful and consistent, the most great tunes and note-for-note memorable solos.

Of the rest I found ASE the richest and most varied. Etcetera is appealing from all points of view but is a bit too deliberate in spots.

More maybe later. Interesting exercise!