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The CD/Vinyl Debate Part 765


A Lark Ascending

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I'm way late to this party.

I was amused when someone earlier in the thread lamented about his 42 year old ears.

Mine are about 30 years older than that.

So - I just try to enjoy the music everyday.

Don't buy anything for sonic upgrades.

Make do with my very middle class system.

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What's with the harsh tones? Seems there is some underlying something or another at play here. I have never read Lon's comments as snobbish, especially when it comes to audio.

I have no idea why I feel compelled to get involved.

I'm now going to listen to a terribly engineered, mixed and mastered CD from a very uncomfortable chair.

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But extracting what is in that mix differs from system to system.

No, it doesn't.

The rest of your post is well taken, but this is simply false.

Their playback capability is different, but the mix remains the same no matter what.

This is silly Scott. I never said the mix was different. But if you think all systems present the same amount of information from the material. . . well I don't believe that to be true from my experience. Anyway, enjoy the music, that's what it's about.

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I remember a really helpful audiophile telling me once at the beginning of my (fairly recent) vinyl odyssey, that you could put one high end needle onto a very good arm, and hear a glass rattle on a Dire Straits Lp, while another high end needle on the same arm would barely register the glass rattle at all, but register something else again - buried deep in the sound stage - that the other needle didn't reveal.

ps. sorry for mentioning Dire Straits on 'this' board :D

Edited by freelancer
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I remember a really helpful audiophile telling me once at the beginning of my (fairly recent) vinyl odyssey, that you could put one high end needle onto a very good arm, and hear a glass rattle on a Dire Straits Lp, while another high end needle on the same arm would barely register the glass rattle at all, but register something else again - buried deep in the sound stage - that the other needle didn't reveal.

ps. sorry for mentioning Dire Straits on 'this' board :D

But did he ever demonstrate this for you? In my experience, these black & white type of statements are rarely true unless there is something seriously wrong with one of the things being compared. My current "needle" on my Denon DP-500M is an Ortofon 3M Black. Before that, I had a relatively inexpensive Denon DL-160 on it (which I still have on my Pro-Ject Debut). Each cartridge has strengths and weaknesses but these don't result in a night & day difference. Tell me where the glass rattles and I'll play the records on my two turntables to see if I can hear them. :)

FWIW, I once had a hi fi shop demo a high end (as in very expensive) AC power cord. As we switched back & forth, he pointed out these major differences he heard. I did not hear one of them. If you do - Bravo. I, for one, am very glad that I *don't* hear them. It saves me a bucket load of money that I can spend on more CDs/LPs or a nice bottle of wine. :D

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I remember a really helpful audiophile telling me once at the beginning of my (fairly recent) vinyl odyssey, that you could put one high end needle onto a very good arm, and hear a glass rattle on a Dire Straits Lp, while another high end needle on the same arm would barely register the glass rattle at all, but register something else again - buried deep in the sound stage - that the other needle didn't reveal.

ps. sorry for mentioning Dire Straits on 'this' board :D

But did he ever demonstrate this for you? In my experience, these black & white type of statements are rarely true unless there is something seriously wrong with one of the things being compared. My current "needle" on my Denon DP-500M is an Ortofon 3M Black. Before that, I had a relatively inexpensive Denon DL-160 on it (which I still have on my Pro-Ject Debut). Each cartridge has strengths and weaknesses but these don't result in a night & day difference. Tell me where the glass rattles and I'll play the records on my two turntables to see if I can hear them. :)

FWIW, I once had a hi fi shop demo a high end (as in very expensive) AC power cord. As we switched back & forth, he pointed out these major differences he heard. I did not hear one of them. If you do - Bravo. I, for one, am very glad that I *don't* hear them. It saves me a bucket load of money that I can spend on more CDs/LPs or a nice bottle of wine. :D

No he didn't demonstrate. I believe he was just trying to make the point that there are differences across the board. With my own 'audiophile' :D listening experience now clocking up the mileage, I tend to agree with you that different needles will just present different 'atmosphere', for want of a better term, rather than 'too much' difference in the revealing of instruments or hidden sounds. For instance, I actually have a DL-160 on my very early model LP12, with a Mission Original arm, and love its luscious warmth and 'sometimes' wide soundstage. I chose this over an Ortofon Blue, which although a quality cart seemed a bit to 'strident' for me. I suppose the Black is the best of both worlds.

I do find that whatever qualities are 'immanent' sonically in the actual session, (or subsequent re-mastering), both good and bad, can be discerned and felt on the most basic set-up, and translate between vinyl and cd to a certain extent.

Although I do think the set-up jazzbo is describing, would bring out the best of everything as you move up the food chain. I guess more of the 'right kind of power' and synergy will drive the source material to greater sonic bliss. But for sure, the music is the most important thing, everyone will agree on that :D

This kind of shit can drive you (or at least me, anyway) crazy. :crazy:

Yeah. You have to set limits :D

Or at least have the insight to say to yourself 'it's good enough'.

Otherwise, you're chasing the end of the Rainbow forever.

Luckily Hammond Trio's and gritty guitar, usually sound good any way they come :D

Edited by freelancer
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I remember a really helpful audiophile telling me once at the beginning of my (fairly recent) vinyl odyssey, that you could put one high end needle onto a very good arm, and hear a glass rattle on a Dire Straits Lp, while another high end needle on the same arm would barely register the glass rattle at all, but register something else again - buried deep in the sound stage - that the other needle didn't reveal.

ps. sorry for mentioning Dire Straits on 'this' board :D

But did he ever demonstrate this for you? In my experience, these black & white type of statements are rarely true unless there is something seriously wrong with one of the things being compared. My current "needle" on my Denon DP-500M is an Ortofon 3M Black. Before that, I had a relatively inexpensive Denon DL-160 on it (which I still have on my Pro-Ject Debut). Each cartridge has strengths and weaknesses but these don't result in a night & day difference. Tell me where the glass rattles and I'll play the records on my two turntables to see if I can hear them. :)

FWIW, I once had a hi fi shop demo a high end (as in very expensive) AC power cord. As we switched back & forth, he pointed out these major differences he heard. I did not hear one of them. If you do - Bravo. I, for one, am very glad that I *don't* hear them. It saves me a bucket load of money that I can spend on more CDs/LPs or a nice bottle of wine. :D

No he didn't demonstrate. I believe he was just trying to make the point that there are differences across the board. With my own 'audiophile' :D listening experience now clocking up the mileage, I tend to agree with you that different needles will just present different 'atmosphere', for want of a better term, rather than 'too much' difference in the revealing of instruments or hidden sounds. For instance, I actually have a DL-160 on my very early model LP12, with a Mission Original arm, and love its luscious warmth and 'sometimes' wide soundstage. I chose this over an Ortofon Blue, which although a quality cart seemed a bit to 'strident' for me. I suppose the Black is the best of both worlds.

I do find that whatever qualities are 'immanent' sonically in the actual session, (or subsequent re-mastering), both good and bad, can be discerned and felt on the most basic set-up, and translate between vinyl and cd to a certain extent.

Although I do think the set-up jazzbo is describing, would bring out the best of everything as you move up the food chain. I guess more of the 'right kind of power' and synergy will drive the source material to greater sonic bliss. But for sure, the music is the most important thing, everyone will agree on that :D

>This kind of shit can drive you (or at least me, anyway) crazy. :crazy:

Yeah. You have to set limits :D

Or at least have the insight to say to yourself 'it's good enough'.

Otherwise, you're chasing the end of the Rainbow forever.

Luckily Hammond Trio's and gritty guitar, usually sound good any way they come :D

Actually, I once got rid of an organ recording because the organ was recorded so muddily that I found it unlistenable. But that was only once.

Edited by paul secor
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But if you think all systems present the same amount of information from the material. . .

All systems are presented with the same information. It's what they do with it afterwards that makes the difference.

As I said before, your system cannot create something from nothing. Hence no more dynamic range.

Period.

You don't have to believe it, but the nice part about science is that it remains true whether you believe it or not.

And I do enjoy the music. And without having to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to do so. I consider myself rather fortunate. ;)

Edited by Scott Dolan
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Scott, just as one example it's been proven to ME by my own experience that if you remove some/as much as possible of the noise in the power supply, and you have cabling that will interfere less with the signal, you can perceive more detail and more of the dynamic information presented there comes through. I have two different systems with different components, different degrees of power conditioning, etc. and they each sound different, one passing through more of the dynamics on the material. It's not adding anything that isn't there, it's revealing more of what is there. If you want to be mid-fi snobby and have a closed mind about this fine, and I'm happy that you're happy with your system, but you're stuck on a point that I'm not disagreeing with (you can't get something that isn't there), and I'm certain that you can get more of what is there to be noticed, and it can bring more enjoyment. (That's what it's about for me, I'm not saying that anything can cure these recordings, but I have been able to make them more listenable for ME.)

You note for example that tone controls mess with the sound. This is related to what I am talking about.

I'm not going to keep arguing with you, but you don't seem to have grasped my point, and I wish that one day you could hear a better presentation to see what I mean. But that's cool. Please don't come back with more of the same at me, hopefully you see what I am saying, whether you agree with me or not, just don't keep misrepresenting what I'm saying--I am NOT saying you can create something from nothing. I am saying there are varying degrees of how much of what is there can be heard on different systems.

Edited by jazzbo
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Okay fine, just please quit misrepresenting what I'm saying and creating disagreement that isn't there.

By the way, I sometimes wish I only had 20 large in my system.

I'm not spending that kind of money just to enjoy music. I do get MORE enjoyment out of it by following my hobby, but I enjoy it just fine on an alarm clock. One benefit of my exploration is that I can get more enjoyment out of these challenged cd releases than others seem to. If I can enjoy a 7 dollar RVG that saves buying a 20 dollar Japanese version. With the quantity of cds I have, that savings funds a lot of my audio fun.

You can do whatever you want with your money, I'll do whatever I want to with mine, and let's be happy.

Edited by jazzbo
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Okay fine, just please quit misrepresenting what I'm saying and creating disagreement that isn't there.

I'm not spending that kind of money just to enjoy music. I do get MORE enjoyment out of it by following my hobby, but I enjoy it just fine on an alarm clock. One benefit of my exploration is that I can get more enjoyment out of these challenged cd releases than others seem to. If I can enjoy a 7 dollar RVG that saves buying a 20 dollar Japanese version. With the quantity of cds I have, that savings funds a lot of my audio fun.

You can do whatever you want with your money, I'll do whatever I want to with mine, and let's be happy.

But I never said I didn't enjoy the music on the RVG's. Just noted the thin and brittle sound quality on some of the ones I have. No big deal.

I've got a Pink Floyd album that sounds rather mushy.

Had the entire Beatles catalog before the recent remaster, and they all sounded flat as a pancake.

Doesn't mean they weren't good, or that I didn't like them.

Hey, even a thin and watery single malt is still a damn good drink!!

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I guess so if you like drinking alcohol. I'm a very occasional drinker and I'm not a Scotch guy, though I've enjoyed some, I just don't drink much.

Okay I was making an assumption just as you were when you say I only enjoy music on an expensive system, believe I hear things that can't be there, etc. Let's stop making assumptions. Let's enjoy the cds and whatever we're drinking (filtered tap water for me at the moment).

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Blueberry and pomagranate Gatorade G2 here.

Though, I did giggle at your "mp3's are simply ghastly!!!" Comment yesterday. :)

They sure used to be. But, I have to say the technology has improved exponentially over the last few years. I suppose that's a byproduct of them becoming commodified in recent years.

Maybe Metallica had a point after all.

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I said that I hate them, I didn't even mention how they sound. I do hate the whole idea of stepping backward in audio quality as a standard, which seems where we're heading. I'm retired and I don't listen to music on the go because I'm either on a motorcycle or on foot right now, and don't feel it's prudent to listen to music in either of those situations these days in this town. I can hear the step down in audio quality on the systems I listen to and I don't look forward to the day when I'm expected to pay for MP3s about the same cost as a cd and there's few other options available. They just don't have a "convenience" factor for me and I'm avoiding them.

Packing up all my stuff for a major cross-country move has made me realize I have far more recordings than I need and I only need to buy an occasional new reissue or new release, and I'll target vinyl when I can from now on because I'm really digging spinning vinyl! It's "new" for me again, digital is old hat.

Edited by jazzbo
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