Scott Dolan Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) Thank you. I tend to react to snide remarks by tweaking. Nothing personal. My first cd was in 1984. Foreignor's Agent Provacateur, of all god forsaken albums. My first impressions were the exact same as yours. Onkyo amp with Boston Acoustic loudspeakers. But, I wasn't the audiophile making the arguments against digital music. I'm assuming you weren't either. But, as you can clearly assess from the quote above, or anywhere on the intertubes if you so choose, many were. And THAT is my only point. Edited March 21, 2013 by Scott Dolan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 BTW you have an impressive way of regularly aggravating people.He's not the only one (myself included ). That's the internet for you. As long as it doesn't turn into personal attacks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 He's not the only one (myself included ). That's the internet for you. As long as it doesn't turn into personal attacks... Internet forums and comment sections seem to bring out the worst in a lot of people (not accusing Scott Dolan here ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six string Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 That's actually a valid point. When cd's first hit the market it was supposed to be this major step backwards sonically, but cd's now sound lightyears better than first gens did and the difference between them and records are laughably negligible. When digital music files first started popping up, they were supposedly a major step backwards sonically, but with newer technology like FLAC, Apple Lossless, hell even AAC they are FAR superior first gen mp3's. But, mp3's gained a reputation, and for many that reputation is carved in stone and it informs their perception. Whatever makes people happy makes people happy, but some of the arguments seem a bit silly, IMO. Didn't you mean a step forward? in regards to cds. At least that's what I remember when cds first appeared. All that "perfect sound forever" nonsense. Not to continue any arguments here but I've read Lon's posts both here and other boards and he's never come off as condescending or snobby to my ears. Maybe it's because I've always had some interest in making my sound system sound as good as I can. I don't have unlimited funds for audio (I do keep a fully stocked bar and a wine cellar) but I've always managed to find techniques or equipment that wasn't expensive that would increase MY listening pleasure and Lon's right imo, if it's something you enjoy then what harm is it and why not do it if it feels (sounds) good? I bought a VPI Scout about ten years ago and I've been pleasantly surprised at the improvement in the sound quality with different cartridges in particular but also little tweaks like cables, anti-vibration stuff and even positioning of my speakers in the room. My system is more modest than lon's but it sounds great to my ears and when money allows I know that I can make improvements. Simply changing cartridges last September made a huge difference in my turntable's ability to reproduce the music and the price difference was actually about $100 less than the previous one I owned. To go along with Lon's statement a few pages back, I'm consistently pleased at how much information my current cartridge/turntable is able to draw out of those record grooves. It doesn't matter whether I payed $2 or $25 for the lp, if good sound was put into the grooves, I'll get a good if not great reproduction to my ears. I don't try to convince digital fans to convert. We all like what we like and there's a good chance that no one is going to convince anyone otherwise. I certainly do enjoy my cds too. As others have stated, both digital and analog have their + and - so it depends sometimes on what your ears hear and whether or not an album is available in one format or another. I've got many an album on vinyl that's never been released on cd, much the same as I have cds of albums that are impossible or too expensive to own on vinyl. So I swing both ways. Whatever it takes to enjoy the music I love, that's the way I roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Scott - I was just becoming an adult when CDs were introduced and even then, I was an serious audiophile. CDs definitely started out as a format marketed to audiophiles. The first players were big bucks and weren't found in your average audio Hi Fi store. I first heard a CD being played on a Phase Linear CD player hooked up to a high end Mcintosh system standing among a group of fellow audiophiles, both young & old, who had all seen the write ups of this new "perfect sound forever" format in one or two of the stereo mags of the day. We all loved what we heard. I immediately started saving my money for a player. I bought one a short time later and within a few years, I had given away all my vinyl because I just loved the sound of CD. It was almost universally considered better by audiophiles. The "vinyl is better than CD" stuff started much later. It started out as a small protest among some of the vinyl diehards because back then, you could discuss the science of sound and prove that digital has better reproduction capabilities than analog. They had it rough back then. Science was against them. These days, the "golden ear" argument reigns supreme. Science is out the window. "Vinyl is better because it sounds better on my system" has become a irrefutable statement of fact. Forget the fact that the S/N, is 100s of times better. Forget that wow & flutter is non-existent as is rumble. Forget about surface noise. So now we're in this stage where a technically inferior playback medium has somehow taken over as the better format. I used to be able to silence the "vinyl is better" arguments for many years with a simple blind test with a CD-R needle drop of an LP. I would play the actual LP or the CD-R of that LP and compare it to the CD. The "vinyl is better" listener could never distinguish between the CD-R of the LP and the LP itself. Once they heard the surface noise and its artifacts (pops, clicks, etc), they would immediately pick it as "better" whether it was on the CD-R or on the LP. It's really not the digital audio that the vinyl fans want and/or miss, it's the ambient noise associated with that vinyl that they want and/or miss. The CD playback system itself is not adding or taking away from the music. It plays back exactly what you feed it. Master a CD to sound good and it will play back with good sound. Master it to sound like crap & it will sound like crap on playback. But you know, it doesn't matter. I'm buying and playing records again because it's fun. I know that I have CDs of a lot of music that sounds better than it does on record but I guess I miss the LP playback rituals. I guess I miss the big artwork - hey, I can read LP liner notes without my reading glasses! I suppose I miss the surface noise too (sometimes... I still %$&^ hate pops during bass solos). But I really don't miss all those crappy pressings. All those scratched up LPs in the used bins. All the wear & tear (I'm on my third cartridge). And you know what I hate the most? Having to get up every 15-25 minutes. I miss being able to sit (and maybe fall asleep) in my chair for a solid hour and not have to worry about getting up to get the stylus out of the run-out groove. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wood Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 I have loved cds since I purchased my first player in 1986. I also loved vinyl and didn't got rid of my records. Fortunately, I was buying records, cheaply, in the late 80's and early 90's when people were getting rid of theirs because they were outdated. In recent years, I've been purchasing cds, cheaply, since most people think they're outdated. This is the definition of winning. I'm not getting into the war because I think they're both great in their owns ways. I love the way that the sound fills the air when I listen to a record and I enjoy the detailed sound and convenience of cds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Another thing gumming up the comparisons is the number of LP's remastered for CD, with results far better than the original LP. And how about LP's which had a degradation of sound from initial pressing to later pressings? An independent record store opened in my neighborhood recently, and I've had a lot of fun going through the stacks. Just yesterday, I found some Savoys I don't think landed on CD, as well as "the 86 Years of Eubie Blake." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Scott - I was just becoming an adult when CDs were introduced and even then, I was an serious audiophile. CDs definitely started out as a format marketed to audiophiles. The first players were big bucks and weren't found in your average audio Hi Fi store. I first heard a CD being played on a Phase Linear CD player hooked up to a high end Mcintosh system standing among a group of fellow audiophiles, both young & old, who had all seen the write ups of this new "perfect sound forever" format in one or two of the stereo mags of the day. We all loved what we heard. I immediately started saving my money for a player. I bought one a short time later and within a few years, I had given away all my vinyl because I just loved the sound of CD. It was almost universally considered better by audiophiles. The "vinyl is better than CD" stuff started much later. It started out as a small protest among some of the vinyl diehards because back then, you could discuss the science of sound and prove that digital has better reproduction capabilities than analog. They had it rough back then. Science was against them. These days, the "golden ear" argument reigns supreme. Science is out the window. "Vinyl is better because it sounds better on my system" has become a irrefutable statement of fact. Forget the fact that the S/N, is 100s of times better. Forget that wow & flutter is non-existent as is rumble. Forget about surface noise. So now we're in this stage where a technically inferior playback medium has somehow taken over as the better format. I used to be able to silence the "vinyl is better" arguments for many years with a simple blind test with a CD-R needle drop of an LP. I would play the actual LP or the CD-R of that LP and compare it to the CD. The "vinyl is better" listener could never distinguish between the CD-R of the LP and the LP itself. Once they heard the surface noise and its artifacts (pops, clicks, etc), they would immediately pick it as "better" whether it was on the CD-R or on the LP. It's really not the digital audio that the vinyl fans want and/or miss, it's the ambient noise associated with that vinyl that they want and/or miss. The CD playback system itself is not adding or taking away from the music. It plays back exactly what you feed it. Master a CD to sound good and it will play back with good sound. Master it to sound like crap & it will sound like crap on playback. But you know, it doesn't matter. I'm buying and playing records again because it's fun. I know that I have CDs of a lot of music that sounds better than it does on record but I guess I miss the LP playback rituals. I guess I miss the big artwork - hey, I can read LP liner notes without my reading glasses! I suppose I miss the surface noise too (sometimes... I still %$&^ hate pops during bass solos). But I really don't miss all those crappy pressings. All those scratched up LPs in the used bins. All the wear & tear (I'm on my third cartridge). And you know what I hate the most? Having to get up every 15-25 minutes. I miss being able to sit (and maybe fall asleep) in my chair for a solid hour and not have to worry about getting up to get the stylus out of the run-out groove. Kevin Now THAT I can live with! I'm with you entirely on cd's. I felt the same way from day one. Hell, no more wow and flutter?! Sign me up, especially since the grand majority of my collection was on cassette. I hear you on the larger artwork. But, as I think I mentioned earlier, I'm all about getting rid of what I now deem needless clutter. Seems odd considering how huge I am on music (my son is named after two Jazz musicians, by design, after all), but I'm more into simply not having so much "stuff" anymore. And with all the advances in digital music files over the last few years, along with a nice low-to-midrange headphone amp (Headroom Micro) I feel like I'm getting the best of both worlds. In a relative way, mind you... He's not the only one (myself included ). That's the internet for you. As long as it doesn't turn into personal attacks... Internet forums and comment sections seem to bring out the worst in a lot of people (not accusing Scott Dolan here ). I'm far more brash in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cih Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 I like both CDs and vinyl. CDs though, to me, are fairly redundant and mine will be going in the loft as soon as I can be bothered to move them (having uploaded them all..) - vinyl just persuades me into a more disciplined way of listening, which forces me into a room to hear to a fuller sample (rather than just flipping about aimlessly). A record feels is a bit more like eating a meal with decent cutlery - tastes the same (to me) but feels better somehow. And I like seeing the label go round and round (I hated my mum's twin-tub) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) Obsolete media being evaluated by old guys whose hearing is shot. Keep it comin'! Edited March 25, 2013 by Teasing the Korean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cih Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 what say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Man Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) Errrrr......, come again. Edited March 25, 2013 by Head Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedR Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Obsolete media being evaluated by old guys whose hearing is shot. Keep it comin'! My eyesight isn't what it used to be. Could you print that a little bigger for us old guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Obsolete media being evaluated by old guys whose hearing is shot. Keep it comin'! My eyesight isn't what it used to be. Could you print that a little bigger for us old guys? I'd prefer a braille card by snail mail. And my CDs over almost any download. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Oh, I'd love to see most audiophiles take a blind test to pick a .wav from a FLAC. If the success rate were 50% I'd be shocked beyond words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Don't get me wrong, I love the FLAC format and am in the process of making secure rips of my entire collection, but FLAC downloads can only ever get me interested if they are 24-bit 96kHz or 192kHz. And why do these HD Tracks downloads have to be so pricey? Also, HD Tracks not selling their wares to people outside of one country (in this case the U.S.A.) brings to mind the horror of DVD/Blu-ray region coding. A real pain in the ass if you live in a small country like The Netherlands where you will have to be content with mostly shitty releases produced for the local market. At least now we have the freedom of choice to import any CD release we fancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 When you say HD tracks, what are you referring to? Amazon/iTunes/Emusic, that kind of thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 When you say HD tracks, what are you referring to? Amazon/iTunes/Emusic, that kind of thing?https://www.hdtracks.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 When you say HD tracks, what are you referring to? Amazon/iTunes/Emusic, that kind of thing? The HD Tracks Blue Note store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 https://www.hdtracks.com/ Where you been? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Oh, I'd love to see most audiophiles take a blind test to pick a .wav from a FLAC. If the success rate were 50% I'd be shocked beyond words. Of course 50 % is exactly what you'd expect, given a .wav and a FLAC made from that same .wav are 'the same.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 https://www.hdtracks.com/ Where you been? Digging the music instead of seeing if I can pick out the musicians breathing in the background. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) That's not what I do, I enjoy the music too. I don't know why you exhibit such disdain for people who are just trying to hear a bit more. Edited March 25, 2013 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Just messin'. I'll have to check one of those out and A > B it against things like AAC and Apple Lossless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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