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BFT 111 Discussion


Joe

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Thanks for the BFT. I find 25 tracks a little overwhelming, so I've just been listening to part A right now. With the exception of maybe the vocal track I think this is a really good collection of music. Being honest though, there are just three or four things I would look into further. Actually that isn't a bad percentage.

Track 05 – On the last few BFTs I've been attracted to the traditional tracks every time. Add this one to the list.

Track 06 – You wouldn't tell by looking at my collection but I'm really a fan of solo piano. My first thought was, neat tune that sounds familiar. On repeated listens, I started to realize that this is a seriously talented piano player for my taste.

Track 12 – More to my liking than some of the other tracks. The bass is my favorite part of the track.

Track 13 – Best thing so far for me. For a more free form type of thing, they all seem to be really in tune with each other, especially the horn players. To my ears anyway.

My one obligatory wild ass guess for the BFT, track 01 made me think of Chick Corea.

On to part B.

Thanks for listening!

Track 1 has been puzzled out already, if you care to look back through the comments.

I would agree re: the talent of the pianist heard on 6. He's actually a historically significant player as well.

I would also agree that there is a "tightness" to 13, which, regardless of how you feel about the music itself, merits appreciation.

Well, I love the music on 13.

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Damn Joe, 25 is lots for one sitting, but I might have the time here, so let's get this party started, the usual thanks and disclaimers firmly but lovingly loose in place.

TRACK ONE - There's something late-Ellingtonish about the piano intro, and then it goes into "Cubano Chant" territory...and the scattered Ellington-ish traces remain. Ahmad Jamal, by any chance? Sounds like a player whose focus is more on ensemble dynamic than soloistic improvisationals. Also, the lack of be-bop bob-and-weave suggests Jamal as well. More busy/dense than "classic" Jamal, but not out of line with where he'd end up being by the end of the 60s.

TRACK TWO - Nathan Davis w/Woody Shaw & Larry Young. I like this very much in every regard for many different reasons, not the least of which is that time of Ex-Pat American/New Gen-Less Stiff Euro interaction all through the 1960s produced some really strong music that suffered not even slightly any sort of "identity crisis", and you gotta love that, and the implications thereof.

TRACK THREE - Sounds like some kind of Kenny Dope thing...but the longer it goes on, no, not a DJ-ed environment, although...still not 100% convinced, only 97% convinced...no, 50% convinced at best...oh, not it gets all descarga-y. So where are we, anyway? I'm not sure. More Willie Bobo? There's a pretty direct link between Kenny Dope & Willie Bobo, although this might be neither of them here.

TRACK FOUR - Couldn't help but find out what this was, and...wow. How perfect of a win-win of calculated opportunism is this? Might not have sold for shot, so the joke was on them, but in the longer game of WOW CHECK THIS OUT!!! it's the type of thing that will live forever, and for good reason.

TRACK FIVE - No idea, but is that Hawk?

TRACK SIX - If Monk played "I Wish I Was In Love Again", it might sound like this, but that's not Monk, and that's not "I Wish I Was In Love Again"..covering the lower end of the piano, eh? Not so much the top end. Whoever it is, it's obvious they love palying the paino and spend a lot of time both doing and thinking about same. And harmony too.

TRACK SEVEN - Not-American Tristanoism, I'd be willing to wager. (and yeah, I hear a little Tristano reachiness in the previous cut). That drummer is silly, no wonder Lennie hated drummers! :g

TRACK EIGHT - Geez, a YouTube of this arrived totally unexpected in the Alex Hoffman thread, and I was almost ready to guess Harold Land as the tenor player. Better not do that now! Let me just say that Brian Lynch keeps turning up in interesting places and leaving them at least as interesting as when he found them, if not more so. But that alto play bugs me, as non-totally-badass alto players tend to do. I can see why this type of structure continues to hold appeal, the changes set up an unpredictable yet inevitable story, but you have to decide for yourself if it's the unpredictability or the inevitability that works for you, and for me, in the end, the inevitability kinda takes the luster off the unpredictability. Of course, that happens in everything, so I guess it's then a question of where your stopping point it. This is not mine, but hey, still enjoyable music.

TRACK NINE - Hampton Hawes? Stanley Clarke? Ron Carter? Kenny Burrell? Something sounds like Fantasy/Milestone early-70s. The timbres are more engaging than are the notes, fwiw. Lots of very standard vocabulary being spoken in interesting colorations.

TRACK TEN - Sounds like "Now He Sings..."-era Corea translated to Rhodes...not a bad thing at all. Maybe not a great thing, wither, but I've always liked Rhodes in gerneal, it's just a meaty sound to start with, the muddiness that some hear is meat to me. Otherwise, this is nice enough, but the Rhodes sound makes it nicer than would the same thing on acoustic, which is to say that and idea that only goes so far only goes so far no matter how you send it.

TRACK ELEVEN - Now this, this has some holistic energy going on. Nothing being "transferred" through instrumentation or timbre, it's just music being played as is. Very good interaction, trumpet player sounds a little weak in tone, but that's what isolation booths and/or baffles and/or close miking and/or mixing boards are for. Might this be Greg Herbert on tenor? Nah, scratch that. I lie this cut, I like how nobody's wearing young clothes to try to disguise old bodies. That never works. This drummer, though, he/she works!

TRACK TWELVE - I can hear the math of the development, which sometimes delights me and sometimes irks me, Right now it''s irking me just a little bit, which is to say that a some other time, it would delight me. Timing is everything, I suppose.

TRACK THIRTEEN - Oh my, that's hilarious! and I mean that as a high compliment! And short enough to fit on a 78 if needed. and I mean that as a very high compliment. Clarity, I love it when that happens.

TRACK FOURTEEN - Well, eight bars is still eight bars, no matter where you put the harmony. I like the rhythm players more than the horn, and the piano player almost threatened to break out of the eight-bar box. All of them sound like people I'd probably like more on some other piece. But this is kinda like an attempt to be Monkian that ends up being just too obvious to survive once you figure out the math:

F Eb Db C-B

Bb Ab Gb F-E

Eb Db Cb Bb-A

Ab Gb E (up to)Eb-E

Two beats per chord, two cords per bar, eight bars total, that's the cycle, over and over. Pretty much the basic/main "Topsy" (and god knows what all else) changes ran through the 1/3 the cycle of fourths (see bolded notes that begin each cycle, each one a fourth away from the last one, and four out of twelve covered) , with a chromatic passing tone used on the "destination tone" of each pattern to pivot it over to another cycle. I guess it's clever to have the last pivot be upward in both octave and direction to get you back to where you started, but it's also...too easy? Eight Bars is still eight bars.++

TRACK FIFTEEN - That sounds like Glenn Ferris on trombone? If not Lacy, then should be. And drummer is, period! But Lacy/Ferris? Don't knwo of that...but if so, then would like to.

TRACK SIXTEEN - Well, yeah. There it is if you like it, there it is if you don't like it. Haters gonna hate, but players gonna play. Players FTW, always. Motherfuckindamnstraight ALWAYS. And so much W here. SO much. Players, hell yeah. PLAYERS! Roy -MF'in McCURDY And HIS Dancing Ass!

E Bom Bom Bomm DA-Dot

DA-Dot

DA-DOT!

TRACK SEVENTEEN - That's a nice song...not a "jazz original"? Maybe a tricked-out pop song? No matter. The projection o the music is a little too "controlled/modern" for me, but I do dig the tune and what they're doing with it, I'd just prefer a little more palpable...sweat. Or something. But that's a hipass tune. And that drum/bass hookup, that's sweet, and maybe even sweaty in real life.

TRACK EIGHTEEN - Andre Previn? Seriously. But then WTF WAH-WAH? Maybe NOT Andre Previn?

TRACK NINETEEN - I got this record, Dave Pike, Windows Of Perception. Damn Good record, got some interesting late-60s Konitz as well as this Leslied-Out Eddie Daniels. Nice choice!

TRACK TWENTY - Kinda Rahsaan-y/George Adams-y rolled into one not quite James Carter-y, which normally I'd say get a life, but it sounds like a life has already been gotten, so keep on keepin' on, as they used to say. But the rest of the band, hey, get a lifier life, maybe. Although the conguero & the drummer work well as a team, even if they both appear to be playing straight man to each other.

TRACK TWENTY-ONE - That's some hip shit. Kinda reminds me of Hank in Paris, although obviously not. But that same bite-y internal tension..I hear it, and the piano player's on the same page. Hell, everybody is.

TRACK TWENTY-TWO - Gil Melle? Harold Vick on soprano? Those are the only names that come to mind, and for totally different reasons. But if I had to pick one, it would be Melle, because the textures wound like logical extension of Tome VI.

TRACK TWENTY-THREE - Wow, definitely Melle? But no, not, maybe a Melle sample? Got something a little Jon Lurie-esque to the vibe to me, for some reason. No matter, but yeah. You can't go on forever like that, but you can sure go on right now like that. And thank you for so doing, whoever you are.

TRACK TWENTY-FOUR - I liked whole tone scales better the way Hank did them.But I preferred coke and alcohol better to heroin and alcohol. So this one leaves me torn.

TRACK TWENTY-FIVE - For my tastes, the tow immediate post Young-Holt versions of The Ramsey Lewis Trio was infinitely more interesting, the one with Cleveland Eaton & Maurice White/Morris Jennings. both as a unit and as record-makers, the latter due to how you put Charles Stepney into the mix, that's why. And through Charles Stepney, a lot of things passed, many interesting things.

Oh, sure, we could keep doing head/solos/head, or we could do improvisations, or we could even do compositions, but dammit, how we make a record?!?!?!?!

Again, haters gonna hate, but players gonna play.

Damn Joe, 25 is lots, but it's a good time in so doing .

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Yes, have both albums, just using that as an example of what the Stepney/Lewis team did in terms or record-making, not as a track ID.

The really interesting stuff on MNS is the electronic interludes composed by Stepney. The little bit of craziness that showed up on EW&F's "Getaway" can be heard in much more elaboration there.

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Well, Jim, what can I say, except that the Internet = narcissism? Can I hear myself now? I think I can.

Really, I trued to trim this set list, but found that there were just too many sounds I wanted to turn on and turn on to.

A few thoughts...

1: Ellington is, I think, an influence felt by this pianist, but Ellington filtered primarily through other players more commonly classified as "modern." And, yes, a player more known for group work than as a great soloist. The sense of integration (no pun or clue intended) on this track, not just of all the members of the band but the subtly disparate musical materials (e.g., that intro, the subsequent theme) is one reason why this track hold so much appeal to me.

2: Rung up. But I'll say it again... I just love how the trumpet player states the theme here.

3: Its vintage, like batik shirts and mushroom rock art and fondue sets. What do you make of the baritone player? Grab you at all? I think there's something going on here in that long solo that relates almost directly to track 23, but maybe I'm making up history that was never made...

6: Monk? Perhaps. This pianist has done a Monk recital, but, as a stylist, this one's more of an omnivore. Again, I will single out the composition itself, which is not the pianist's own (it belongs to another pianist and bandleader). Here, the shape of the original has been retained, but, harmonically, it rolls along in a slightly altered orbit from the original. Certainly, the mood this pianist finds along this track is rather different from the one I know, or thought I knew...

8: Yeah, kind of bummed that this was outed elsewhere on the board -- and totally inadvertently -- but this track is, for me, hardly at all about the soloists (other than the trumpet player... though the tenor player does hit on a few agree-able Clifford Jordan-isms, IMO) and more about the composition (and its composer) and the larger project of which its a part.

9: All good guesses, and, yes, these 4 players are more standard / classical / "eternal verities of swing" than modish. What I love about this track is how this pianist -- not one much (well, ever or at all) associated with electric instruments -- is willing to fully explore and exploit those tonalities. I mean, this is not just this player's typical playing transposed to an electric instrument. This is an electric instrument inhabited.

10: Don't you remember our old neighbors?

11: Surprised no one has yet thought, "Is this Dave Douglas?" It's not Dave Douglas, but he has made records vaguely in this mode. But this is a working band, and a band featuring a player who has, for the bulk of a long career, but more sort of a freelancer / featured player. In fact, the leader is a player I've never really warmed to until I heard this particular record. And I'm still a bit surprised to think that, yep, that's that player leading this band!

14: I hear more Sun Ra than Monk, but I can't argue with that analysis. I think you will be proved correct in your feeling that "All of them sound like people I'd probably like more on some other piece." Especially the tenor player.

15: Ding! (On the trombone player... a player who should be more widely known.)

16: If "it is what it is" hadn't been bludgeoned into meaninglessness by overuse (especially by athletes), then I would say that this track is an illustration of the best that "it is what it is" might mean. But, OK, no, and a better definition exists in choreography anyway. And don't you love how the band responds to each soloists... like, how you can feel the urgency step up the minute the alto player comes in. Reminds me a little of what happens on Coltrane's "Ole", where Elvin is rather blithely grooving behind Hubbard and Dolphy and Tyner, not really pushing anything past his cymbal and snare work... until Coltrane starts his solo, and immediately Elvin transforms into, well, Elvin.

17: Yes, its about the song, and the songwriter for sure. Innocent but not naive. Sometimes you find hipness in odd places... I would say of this tenor player, too, that this is but one facet of that individual's music. This is a player who understands and respects the musical cultures from which he/she belongs, but is not unduly beholden to them. Though that may not be easy to hear here.

18: If you recognize the tune, then maybe its because you like to recognize the tune! ;)

19: The history of that record is a story worth telling.

20: Less about the horn player than the organist for me, and the "traditions" being extended here, RRK DEFINITELY being part of that. James Carter would use (too many) more notes to say less, surely. A sidetrack, really; like that one street in the seedy neighborhood you avoid driving through only one afternoon you take a wild hare and say to yourself, "Hey, let's see what else is back there" only to discover, what? some wild thing preserved? something real? once of a place, and still capable of presence, but now out of place?

22: Gil Melle... well, there is a soundtrack connection here. This track is really a mess, in some ways, but there's something compellingly "off" about the soprano sax player. I can tell you: this player is not especially known as a soprano sax player.

25: It makes me happy.

Thanks for the close listen and the generous words!

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My comments may be shorter than usual this month because I am busy preparing my own BFT for July. There is some fantastic stuff here and I look forward to coming back to listen more, and finding out who/what these are.
Track 1 - This is fantastic, but I want more! Too short. :) LOVE the piano player...some wonderfully soulful, gritty playing. And the overall feel from the rhythm section is perfect. Feeling a South African vibe here.
Track 2 - Another winner. Nice ensemble sound. The drummer is reminding me of Billy Higgins. I am loving the groove on this. Am curious about the trumpet and tenor player especially...I feel like I should know who this is.
Track 3 - This one never totally got off the ground for me. It's a good groover though, and I particularly dig the electric bass playing. But I kept wanting it to go somewhere else. The changeup around the 4 min mark seemed promising but then things sort of stayed at the same energy level. So I'm not sure about this one.
Track 4 - Okay, I cheated and looked this one up...sorry. :( I won't say who it is, but it fit in with the era & scene I expected. Fun tune.
Track 5 - Is that first solo on bass clarinet or he is just really sticking to the low register? Interesting. I like this one a lot. Love the tenor player's sound too!
Track 6 - Hey, I know this tune...oh man, this is gonna kill me. I am thinking Sun Ra...if not something he wrote, maybe something he played early on? Wow, what a cool rendition of this! The version I am familiar with is much faster. You've got me very curious about this one! This is a beautiful performance.
Track 7 - This sounds like something out of the Lee Konitz school to my ears, though I'm venturing into territory I'm not super-familiar with here. Whatever it is, I like it. The alto solo especially. Very smooth. And the blend of the two horns on the head is just great.
Track 8 - This one didn't really reach me. Nothing wrong with it per se, it's pleasant enough but just didn't hit me at all emotionally. Nice playing from everyone though.
Track 9 - What I wrote above could apply to this track too. I dig the 70s vibe, but it just feels a little too detached for me.
Track 10 - This is great...diggin it. And boy, it sounds really familiar, but I can't place it. Some fantastic interplay between the Rhodes and the drums, especially towards the end of the solo. I'm a fan of the bass & drum solos too. Good grief, I know this drummer. Really anxious to find out who this is.
Track 11 - I like the tune a lot. Some interesting lines from the trumpet...a very thoughtful player. I am really enjoying this. Beautiful sound too. Hmm...the tenor solo is much less interesting to me though. Even though the sound of this track overall is reminiscent of the 70s, I'm guessing that this is a much more recent recording done in 'retro' style.
Track 12 - This is fantastic. Love the way it builds...when they first settle into the groove after the 2 minute mark is a great moment. And again later when things really start to take off. This is fantastic stuff. The tenor player has incredible command of his instrument. As a unit these guys are really in sync. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess Thomas Chapin?
Track 13 - Love it, love it, love it. Is this the Art Ensemble? Sure sounds like them...maybe with Muhal on piano? Hmmm...well, I am not 100% sure on that, I don't think I am hearing Mitchell in there. Even if it's not, it's terrific. Love the melody, and the different textures they create in just a short amount of time. This is one of those short tunes that feels like a longer "epic" (in a good way) because of all they put into it. Very cool.
Track 14 - I am loving the way this starts out, with the layers of percussion, handclaps...into the bowed bass. And I like the simplicity of the tune. Nice vibes solo, and I really like the energy in the tenor player's sound. Very curious about this one. A decidedly lo-fi sound too, which only adds to the charm. I am really enjoying this. The tune is totally infectious, from the descending bass line on up to the quirky little melody. And I must know who some of these people are, especially the tenor player...but I've got no guesses.
Track 15 - That bass vamp is killer. One of those things that I could listen to forever. Trombone solo is flat-out awesome. Great track all around, love the urgency of it and the creative soloing. I could be way off base on this but am wondering if this is Steve Lacy and Roswell Rudd.
Track 16 - Another killer. Wow...I am not sure what to make of this one...sounds like Miles? But it can't be. Somewhere between Miles and Freddie Hubbard? Boy, I am going to regret not being able to guess this, I just know it. This has sort of an early Weather Report feel to me too. I am very confused. What the heck is this??? I need it. God, I should know this.
Track 17 - Not really my bag. Obviously well done for what it is, but it just feels too safe to me.
Track 18 - Words like tight, crisp, and tasty immediately come to mind. This is a well-oiled trio. Hmmm...I didn't expect that at the 1:15 mark. Eh...I don't know, feels a little too schizophrenic to me. I'm not really sure what they're saying. This one missed the mark for me.
Track 19 - In my opinion the production overshadows the playing on this one. The groove is fun and it's a nice little curiosity, but if I'm honest I didn't find the performance all that interesting.
Track 20 - The organ playing and the tune itself are reminding me of Doug Carn somehow. The tenor solo is a trip! Fantastic...really enjoyed that. Yeah, this one is a keeper! Am looking forward to finding out who it is.
Track 21 - There's a reason the bass player is featured out front...he's really stinkin' good. Those are some deep bass lines. This is an interesting track, I like the different chords on the blues. The tenor player is outstanding, tremendous sound and concept. This is a hell of a band. Can't wait for the ID of this one.
Track 22 - Hmmm...interesting, not sure what I think of it yet...I like the sounds. The soprano solo is good but I think the flute solo is where it clicks a bit more for me. I'm a little mixed on this one, probably would have to listen to it a couple more times to make up my mind. It feels a little bit directionless. I do appreciate what they're trying to do though. Would like to hear the flute player in a different context.
Track 23 - This is pretty cool. Wasn't sure where it was going to go at the beginning, I thought we were suddenly in the realm of European electronic music, which it sounds like we kind of are, but once the sax comes in it all comes together in a really interesting way. I really, really like the sax player. This is heavy stuff.
Track 24 - These guys are burnin...I am on the edge of my seat. Holy crap. Hard to single any one particular thing out here because it's all good. The rhythm section is just killer. I KNOW that bass player. There are a few things the trumpet player plays that remind me of Woody Shaw. And I LOVE the way the tenor solo starts...and continues...and finishes! This is awesome on every level.
Track 25 - Nice groover, love the kalimba. The people that first come to mind when I hear thumb piano are Phil Cohran, Maurice White, Stanley Cowell and Kahil El'Zabar, but this is none of those. So I'm curious to find out who it is. Great way to end the BFT!
Joe, many thanks for putting this together...there is so much here that is right up my alley. In terms of my own tastes, this has been one of my favorite BFTs. Unfortunately that means by the time everything has been ID'd, I will have lots to add to my list! So my wallet will be a lot lighter. Thanks for that. :) But seriously...awesome stuff here, thanks for sharing!! And I just hope I haven't embarrassed myself too much with my lousy guesses.
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Tim -- my pleasure! And thanks for the careful listen and thoughts. A few words of my own...

1 has been ID'ed elsewhere in this thread, if you are interested. I agree... I wish there was more of this work available from this particular pianist.

2 has also been skulldug (?) / guessed, at least tenor and trumpet. Higgins this is not; a drummer of an earlier generation, actually. But a drummer who never was anything but contemporary... I mean, big, big ears.

6 is indeed a Sun Ra composition, interpreted almost in the manner in which Ra himself might have interpreted someone else's music, which, for me, is part of the genius of the performance. "Sun Ra in the style of Sun Ra."

10 does not feature any particularly well-known musicians, with the exception of maybe one. But the drummer, yes, name recognition aside, he's a dal that's real.

12 is not Thomas Chapin... rather, a player who sounds to me -- here, at least -- equal parts Ayler and Ornette. If that helps!

13 is not the AEC, but it's not outside that orbit by any stretch of the imagination. And, yes, this is actually something of a snippet from a greater work / performance.

15 -- half-right, and the trombone player has been named elsewhere, too. Another player who should be more well-known.

16 -- again, the answer is in this thread. But its definitely a band and performance that is situated at the intersection of all the music you named in your comments. In fact, this band (not limiting band here to this specific personnel) was perhaps more influential in all that first wave "fusion" that it's generally been given credit for...

20 -- I wish I'd included some Doug Carn here. But Carn it is not. And, as I may have mentioned in another set of comments, if you listen closely, it becomes less and less certain that what you are hearing is a tenor sax.

22 meanders for a reason (I almost left this tune off because of its sprawl), as I hope the reveal will, um, reveal. But I just couldn't resist including it because of personnel involved and the context surrounding the recording.

25 has also been exposed, and you are right on early in your guesses. We began in Africa -- even if just an Africa of the imagination -- and end there, too.

Thanks again!

J

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I have listened to this BFT many times and it is a thoroughly humbling experience. I would have thought that with 25 tracks, I would know at least ONE. But no, all are a complete mystery to me. There is a hint in the discussion that one of them might be Sun Ra, but that is not clear to me either, even though I have listened to a great deal of Sun Ra. I like electric keyboards generally, and there are several electric keyboard tracks here, but all are unfamiliar to me. I will keep listening and if I think of anything to add to the discussion, I will.

In the meantime, I have enjoyed listening to this BFT very much.

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I have listened to this BFT many times and it is a thoroughly humbling experience. I would have thought that with 25 tracks, I would know at least ONE. But no, all are a complete mystery to me. There is a hint in the discussion that one of them might be Sun Ra, but that is not clear to me either, even though I have listened to a great deal of Sun Ra. I like electric keyboards generally, and there are several electric keyboard tracks here, but all are unfamiliar to me. I will keep listening and if I think of anything to add to the discussion, I will.

In the meantime, I have enjoyed listening to this BFT very much.

Glad to know these tracks have given you some pleasure!

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Haven't had a chance to listen to part B much but I'm going to be traveling and won't be on the internet for awhile, so one last comment.

Track 15 alone is worth the price of admission. Glenn Ferris (I read through the comments) is really great here. So is the rest of the group. Ferris is the best part of every album I've head him on.

Thanks for the music.

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I have now had time to listen to "Giorgio Gaslini Plays Sun Ra" and have identified #6 as "Saturn" from that album.

As others have noted, this performance of "Saturn" is very different from the way it was performed by Sun Ra on his 1950s albums "Sound of Joy" and "Jazz in Silhouette".

Edited by Hot Ptah
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Hi all. Big thanks - again -- to everyone who has participated thus far.

This weekend represents the last weekend to share your blind impressions and thoughts. I'll be going all apocalypse on these 25 tracks late Monday, July 1.

Edited by Joe
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