Jazz and Gospel music.

[Hardbopjazz]

Any good jazz influence by gospel music?

We all know Horace Silver's "The Peacher." Can anyone mention other jazz that mixes gospel music?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Gospel music has been an essential and pervasive element in most soul jazz, particularly since the late 40s/early 50s, when the Orioles, Clyde McPhatter with the Dominoes, and other early vocal groups, as well as Billy Wright and, most importantly, Ray Charles, began to incorporate gospel rhythms, singing styles and formal elements into their R&B records. Since then, soul jazz has more or less kept in step with developments in R&B, even to the present, with smooth jazz relating clearly to smooth soul, in which gospel roots are still audible (though there's a marked lack of quality in both smooth jazz and smooth soul nowadays).

As far as the way jazz musicians play is concerned, some organists definitely learned in church. Baby Face Willette was audibly influenced greatly by Professor Herman Stevens, 'The poet of the gospel organ', and Rev Maceo Woods (whose VJ recording of 'Amazing grace' pts 1 & 2 sold half a million copies). Charles Kynard played in church on Sundays all his life. Doc Bagby, who was a member of Jaws' first permanent tenor/organ group, played on numerous gospel recordings made by Gotham Records, a Philadelphia label which made a lot more gospel records than jazz & R&B; Bagby was musical director of the label. Some discussion of these organists is here -

Quite a few soul jazz musicians have made gospel-like recordings. One thread that deals with them is this one -

Here's another that's in a slightly different vein -

Here's another recent one, looking at jazz recordings with gospel choirs -

Quite a lot of interesting places to look here.

MG

[Neal Pomea]

Sam Morgan's Jazz Band:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mKd_MaSprk

[mjzee]

TMG, I think you'll find this interesting. I just bought the Dylan box of the complete Basement Tapes. This was in the liner notes:

"I'd like to know what you were listening to at the time of these recordings, Mr. Hudson?" she asked soon-to-be 77 Garth. Took a while, yet eventually Garth responded, "Well, Bill Avis, our manager with The Hawks had his 45s collection stolen during one of our shows at Pawhuska [Oklahoma reservation]. We'd hear them on the record player in the living room of Robbie's mother's home at 193 First Avenue where we lived while still based up in Toronto. Luckily 10 or 12 Vee-Jay and Savoy label Gospel singles survived. As we settled into Big Pink following those tours with Bob, we just picked up where we left off and kept listening to them. There was a Caravans song called 'To Whom Shall I Turn?' that Richard [Manuel] listened to over and over."

What were some of the other gospel artists? "Oh, The Argo Singers...Shirley Caesar...these were from the era 1958-1960 when the gospel groups' piano/organ work was at its peak." Robbie Robertson often cites The Staple Singers from this era as a big influence as well. "Mmmmm," continued Garth, "There was Alex Bradford who played keys on many of 'em...hadda fast right hand, gave it a 3/4 feeling - maybe 9/8ths."

[JSngry]

[AllenLowe]

I did a whole project - Blues and the Empirical Truth - based on blues and Gospel forms.

If I dare say, it gets more to the essence than most such jazz projects:

http://www.allenlowe.com/albums/blues-and-the-empiricle-truth/

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

TMG, I think you'll find this interesting. I just bought the Dylan box of the complete Basement Tapes. This was in the liner notes:

"I'd like to know what you were listening to at the time of these recordings, Mr. Hudson?" she asked soon-to-be 77 Garth. Took a while, yet eventually Garth responded, "Well, Bill Avis, our manager with The Hawks had his 45s collection stolen during one of our shows at Pawhuska [Oklahoma reservation]. We'd hear them on the record player in the living room of Robbie's mother's home at 193 First Avenue where we lived while still based up in Toronto. Luckily 10 or 12 Vee-Jay and Savoy label Gospel singles survived. As we settled into Big Pink following those tours with Bob, we just picked up where we left off and kept listening to them. There was a Caravans song called 'To Whom Shall I Turn?' that Richard [Manuel] listened to over and over."

What were some of the other gospel artists? "Oh, The Argo Singers...Shirley Caesar...these were from the era 1958-1960 when the gospel groups' piano/organ work was at its peak." Robbie Robertson often cites The Staple Singers from this era as a big influence as well. "Mmmmm," continued Garth, "There was Alex Bradford who played keys on many of 'em...hadda fast right hand, gave it a 3/4 feeling - maybe 9/8ths."

I guess this guy Garth was one of Ronnie Hawkins' band, the Hawks, later The Band. Is that correct?

MG

[mjzee]

Yup. Brilliant keyboardist, imho.

[AllenLowe]

the more interesting gospel, and the more closely related to the idea of improvisation, is the '20s 'storefront' sets. Arizona Dranes, Bessie Johnson, et al. This is the stuff that inspired Ayler.

jazz musicians tend to be overqualified.

Edited December 4, 2014 by AllenLowe

[danasgoodstuff]

TMG, I think you'll find this interesting. I just bought the Dylan box of the complete Basement Tapes. This was in the liner notes:

"I'd like to know what you were listening to at the time of these recordings, Mr. Hudson?" she asked soon-to-be 77 Garth. Took a while, yet eventually Garth responded, "Well, Bill Avis, our manager with The Hawks had his 45s collection stolen during one of our shows at Pawhuska [Oklahoma reservation]. We'd hear them on the record player in the living room of Robbie's mother's home at 193 First Avenue where we lived while still based up in Toronto. Luckily 10 or 12 Vee-Jay and Savoy label Gospel singles survived. As we settled into Big Pink following those tours with Bob, we just picked up where we left off and kept listening to them. There was a Caravans song called 'To Whom Shall I Turn?' that Richard [Manuel] listened to over and over."

What were some of the other gospel artists? "Oh, The Argo Singers...Shirley Caesar...these were from the era 1958-1960 when the gospel groups' piano/organ work was at its peak." Robbie Robertson often cites The Staple Singers from this era as a big influence as well. "Mmmmm," continued Garth, "There was Alex Bradford who played keys on many of 'em...hadda fast right hand, gave it a 3/4 feeling - maybe 9/8ths."

I guess this guy Garth was one of Ronnie Hawkins' band, the Hawks, later The Band. Is that correct?

MG

Yup, Garth Hudson, member of the Hawks, the Band, still going. Paid to give the other Hawks lessons.

[AllenLowe]

I seem to be conducting a monolog here, but I'm used to it -

THIS is the gospel collection you need to own: http://www.amazon.com/Spreading-Word-Early-Gospel-Recordings/dp/B0002TX8TO/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1417727402&sr=1-6&keywords=jsp+gospel

[John L]

The word "soul" in reference to music was first used in the 1950s to denote gospel influences in jazz.

[Thomas Jackson]

Wynton Marsalis - In This House On This Morning

word

[AllenLowe]

Wynton's too middle class for real gospel.

here, let me help you guys (and Wynton) out: (warning: do not listen to this while holding a Wynton CD, as the emotions generated might cause you to light it on fire and stomp on it):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYSbkIm7SNM

[John L]

Wynton's too middle class for real gospel.

I am not too much of a fan of In This House On this Morning, but that is one hell of a statement. So we should reject gospel artists with middle class backgrounds?

Edited December 9, 2014 by John L

[AllenLowe]

no, only jazz musicians who try to play gospel.

But seriously, many of the gospel singers I admire are from the middle class; Wynton's problem is that he just, to my ears, doesn't have the feeling for the kind of deep vernacular that gospel requires. It becomes, instead, a solemn, "here's to my heritage" tokenist musical tool.

To me gospel is a much more complex and multi-layered music.

Edited December 9, 2014 by AllenLowe

[John L]

It is true that Wynton does not have a sanctified (Hollness, COGIC) church background. As I recall, "In This House On This Morning" was not meant to be that.

[uli]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaNxRa8OWDw