Classic Blue Notes on SHM-CD

[bertrand]

I wonder where the photo was taken - is that the Empire State Building in the background? I assume this was not recorded at RVG.

Bertrand.

Edited January 30, 2014 by bertrand

[jazzbo]

Got in a batch and listened to Odyssey of Iska and Grass Roots. So glad the latter has both sessions that appeared on the US cd. Both sound very good, with specail notice to the Shorter as it is so much improved from the original US cd to my ears.

Edited January 30, 2014 by jazzbo

[erwbol]

Grass Roots must be my least favourite Hill Blue Note session, and the sound of the 24bit McMaster Connoisseur does not help the music one bit. I did order the SHM, of course, to support the further release of more relevant Hill sessions.

Next month's Lift Every Voice is a favourite and in desperate need of a sonic upgrade imo.

Odyssey of Iska is new to me, apart from bittorrent, and I'm very much looking forward to it. I didn't bother to get Moto Grosso Feio in the BNLA999, as I was never able to connect with it listening on my iMac.

[jazzbo]

I had Moto Grossa Feio I only had on the US One Way cd which imo sounds awful. I prefer that session to Odyssey of Iska to be honest, and it sounds really good on the recent Japanese cd.

Grass Hill has grown on me over time and I really like the bonus session even more. Jimmy Ponder is always worth listening to imo.

I'll probably get Lift Every Voice as I enjoy this session a lot, and Connoisseurs can almost always be bettered these days.

Edited January 30, 2014 by jazzbo

[skeith]

As others are noted here, based on the one SHM version I got (Joe Henderson - State of the Tenor, Vol. 1) this series is a dramatic improvement over domestic cds issued in the mid 80s like the Joe Henderson.

I am wondering if this SHM series even improves on the RVG series, which in almost every case I am very happy with.

I am almost afraid of what you guys may answer.....

[jazzbo]

I'm a fan of the RVG series, one of the few it seems at times.

These are quite different in sonic nature. My system accomodates either mastering style and allows them to shine. In general the RVGs seem more like live music to ME (others think differently, I know). And these SHM-CDs seem more like incredible transparent representations of the session tape. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the essential difference in character to me. The best RVGs seem more "alive" and I'm able to deal with the frequency balance in my system through "riding the gain"(differing the gain on DAC/preamp, tube preamp, and amp gain stages), tube bias changes and using the excellent treble cut circuit in my amp. Tiny adjustments make significant differences. You've heard my system so you may have an idea of what I mean.

I like most examples of both series I've owned. I prefer them to the McMasters and "Blue Note Works" series releases, but my devotion to these Blue Note sessions isn't as absolute as it once was; I'm not going to replace every single one.

[David Ayers]

I'm a fan of the RVG series, one of the few it seems at times.

In general the RVGs seem more like live music to ME (others think differently, I know). And these SHM-CDs seem more like incredible transparent representations of the session tape. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the essential difference in character to me.

It is a key distinction, and I'd add a third - as you say, is a new version of any kind true to the reality of the sounds, true to the tape, or (my addition) true to the feel of the original LP issue. All different things.

[erwbol]

As others are noted here, based on the one SHM version I got (Joe Henderson - State of the Tenor, Vol. 1) this series is a dramatic improvement over domestic cds issued in the mid 80s like the Joe Henderson.

I am wondering if this SHM series even improves on the RVG series, which in almost every case I am very happy with.

I am almost afraid of what you guys may answer.....

With the SHM Monks obliterating the RVGs (and the nineties Addey box set), even the myth that despite a rough start to the series Rudy was able to work wonders on the early mono material turns out to have been complete bullshit. The Monks clearly were boosted and compressed (which Rudy denied in a more general sense for the whole RVG series in an interview, I believe).

Next month, I'll get Amazing Bud Vol.1 and J.J. Johnson Vol.1 and that will be a very interesting comparison indeed. The Rollins Village Vanguard disc is also an improvement with four bonus tracks (no overlap in titles), half the material recorded.

I ordered the Hancock Maiden Voyage because currently I think I prefer the BN Works for its more focused sound. Tony Williams' cymbals do sound nice on the SACD, but with the extreme soundstage they dominate too much on headphones. The Empyrean Isles SHM gives me hope for a more satisfying group sound coupled with superior transfer & mastering.

Edited January 30, 2014 by erwbol

[jazzbo]

I differ in that I don't think that the SHM-CD Monks "obliterate" the RVGs. I like them both for their different presentations. The RVGs "boogie" in a way the SHM-CDs don't to my ears, and I like that. EQ and compression boosts are not always a bad thing. Anyone who has taken a raw tape and tried to make a master can realize this. I used to master tapes of bands I was in in the 'eighties and can well attest to that myself.

Also I'm not a headphone user, a very unnatural sound to me in all instances, and all my judgments are speakers in a room.

I like both series for what they are. Personal preferences in sound overall and system differences play in this I'm sure.

Edited January 30, 2014 by jazzbo

[J.A.W.]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but unlike the original albums the early McMaster versions of the Thelonious Monk/Milt Jackson Blue Notes had the tracks in recorded order. Same goes for the J.J. Johnson McMasters and Hank Mobley's early Straight No Filter, No Room for Squares (Hoffman's AP remaster followed the album sequence) and The Turnaround McMasters. How are these TYCJ reissues in that respect (as far as they've been released, of course)?

Edited January 30, 2014 by J.A.W.

[jazzbo]

I'm a fan of the RVG series, one of the few it seems at times.

In general the RVGs seem more like live music to ME (others think differently, I know). And these SHM-CDs seem more like incredible transparent representations of the session tape. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the essential difference in character to me.

It is a key distinction, and I'd add a third - as you say, is a new version of any kind true to the reality of the sounds, true to the tape, or (my addition) true to the feel of the original LP issue. All different things.

Good point. My impressions of digital Blue Note have seen some change getting to know Blue Note vinyl more, slowly, the last few years. Wish I could afford the original pressings of Blue Note releases, but I'm not even going there.

[erwbol]

I'm a fan of the RVG series, one of the few it seems at times.

In general the RVGs seem more like live music to ME (others think differently, I know). And these SHM-CDs seem more like incredible transparent representations of the session tape. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the essential difference in character to me.

It is a key distinction, and I'd add a third - as you say, is a new version of any kind true to the reality of the sounds, true to the tape, or (my addition) true to the feel of the original LP issue. All different things.

This seems to me a dishonest diversion from legitimate criticism. The only live experience the RVGs are a representation of is that of an end user manipulating the output of his speaker system through a dedicated equalizer component.

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but unlike the original albums the early McMaster versions of the Thelonious Monk/Milt Jackson Blue Notes had the tracks in recorded order. Same goes for the J.J. Johnson McMasters and Hank Mobley's early Straight No Filter, No Room for Squares (Hoffman's AP remaster followed the album sequence) and The Turnaround McMasters. How are these TYCJ reissues in that respect (as far as they've been released, of course)?

They adhere to the order of the 12 inch LPs (plus liner notes, artwork), I believe. The bonus cuts make this the complete sessions.

[J.A.W.]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but unlike the original albums the early McMaster versions of the Thelonious Monk/Milt Jackson Blue Notes had the tracks in recorded order. Same goes for the J.J. Johnson McMasters and Hank Mobley's early Straight No Filter, No Room for Squares (Hoffman's AP remaster followed the album sequence) and The Turnaround McMasters. How are these TYCJ reissues in that respect (as far as they've been released, of course)?

They adhere to the order of the 12 inch LPs (plus liner notes, artwork), I believe. The bonus cuts make this the complete sessions.

So apart from any bonus tracks they're the same mishmash as the original 12" LPs. If I remember correctly (sold them a long time ago) even the RVGs had the tracks in recorded order. I prefer it that way.

[Leeway]

I wonder where the photo was taken - is that the Empire State Building in the background? I assume this was not recorded at RVG.

Bertrand.

Yes, I think it is. Only other thing it could be is the Chrysler Building, but I'm going with Empire State Building. Trying to figure out from which angle the picture was taken from, it appears from south of the ESB, maybe far west side of Manhattan, a likely place for rail yards back then. Too foggy to tell.

[erwbol]

I differ in that I don't think that the SHM-CD Monks "obliterate" the RVGs. I like them both for their different presentations. The RVGs "boogie" in a way the SHM-CDs don't to my ears, and I like that. EQ and compression boosts are not always a bad thing. Anyone who has taken a raw tape and tried to make a master can realize this. I used to master tapes of bands I was in in the 'eighties and can well attest to that myself.

Also I'm not a headphone user, a very unnatural sound to me in all instances, and all my judgments are speakers in a room.

I like both series for what they are. Personal preferences in sound overall and system differences play in this I'm sure.

The reason I'm currently on headphones only is because speakers would have been too hard on the neighbours in my previous apartment. I'll get back to speakers now that I've moved as soon as finances and the expansion of my CD library allow.

That said, even when I had both speakers and headphones, I always felt headphones were particularly good for checking up on particular aspects of the sound of a CD.

I have little knowledge of the job of an engineer, but I sure wish Kevin Reeves had listened closely to the end product of his labour for the recent Coltrane Impulse Originals series on headphones. The ear splitting peaks on (some) of these discs are awful.

[jazzbo]

I used headphones a lot for years and I just tired of them, and never enjoyed them as I do speaker listening. I live in an apartment now as well, but I guess I'm lucky in a way though it's at a cost: my only real listening time is on weekday afternoons when no neighbors are home, the rest of the time of the day and usually all weekend I am generally at my parents helping them out. That said, my apartment is set up so that my system fires away from any neighbors and I don't worry about the volume even when I get home after 9 or 10 pm. If I had to listen to headphones. . . I probably would move somewhere where I could listen to speakers, I dislike and distrust the sound that much.

Edited January 30, 2014 by jazzbo

[Eric]

I appreciate all the discussion re: sound quality and the ones I have picked up do sound great. I am personally grooving on the fact that many of the titles were not previously and/or easily available on CD. I've been playing the hell out of On Broadway by Reuben Wilson - it smokes!

[jazzbo]

Well Scott, I'm happy for you. If if headphones sound great, I don't want to wear and listen to them.

[Late]

The RVGs — for the early Doug Hawkins material, at least — presented tracks in recording order with the exception that alternates were placed (wisely, I think) at the end of a session. I got so used to this presentation that I wasn't even aware of the original vinyl track order.

These SHM CDs restore that vinyl track order, as mentioned above, and I'm glad for it. I like the "story" that Alfred's decision for track order creates. (Maybe it wasn't Alfred's decision alone; I don't know. Perhaps Wolff or the artists themselves played into the final decision for track order. Chuck could probably level an assertion in this regard.)

For me, a good example of how recording order doesn't work is the Ornette Coleman Atlantic box. While I love that box set, I created CDRs of each album in their vinyl order, with "bonus" tracks at the end. I originally got to know those recordings in their vinyl track order, and couldn't undo the expectation of what I'd hear next. I do understand the appeal of recording order — in that it reflects, to some extent, the evolution of a session — but sometimes recording order, when I listen that way, makes me feel like I've made a sandwich with the contents on the outside and the bread on the inside.

I also sometimes think that if Blue Note recording artists from back in the day were to read through a thread like this, they might say: You crazy!!!

Still doesn't diminish my enthusiasm for this new series, though. And now you guys have me wondering about the SHM of Odyssey of Iska, one of the few McMasters I was actually content with. Argh!

[skeith]

Now I have to wonder if the new reissue of New York Is Now will reinstate the original (and intended) overdubs for "We Now Interrupt For A Commercial" ... ?

To answer my own question — yes, the new TYCJ has the original Mel Fuhrman overdubs. The disc (I received it this weekend) also has a much wider soundstage than the 1989/90 edition that Malcolm Addey worked on. Both sound good — I'm not going to ditch the 1990 disc.

I've always loved Dewey Redman's entrance on "The Garden of Souls" — creepy, and who else has ever played like that? On the new TYCJ, you can hear finer details on how he's achieving that weird sound; soundstage-wise, it "appears" from the top-center, and fairly descends through Elvin's drums. Bizarre, in the best of ways. I think I like how Elvin's drums were handled better on the Addey edition, however, but maybe I'm just hearing how they were originally recorded.

The TYCJ's I've heard so far aren't too loud. (They are louder than McMasters.) They (the TYCJ's) compare quite closely with the Blue Note XRCD's I've heard. At times, horns sound too aggressive to me (on the TYCJ's), but I think that's because I'm so used to listening to the Blue Note Works TOCJ's. While I'm enjoying this new series, I won't be abandoning my TOCJ's. For my system and preferences, they're probably still my favorite.

But, agreeing with comments above, the Monk TYCJ's sound good, and are a considerable improvement over the RVGs. In contrast, I prefer the Miles Davis TOCJ's to their new TYCJ counterparts.

I don't know if any of this helps board members here. My impressions of this new series so far are positive. The artwork is being carefully handled (it's much finer than the TOCJ artwork) — one example is that the TYCJ of New York Is Now! brings back the color artwork that was on the back of the original LP. Nice touch! The inner photos (some of them entirely new to me) are also nicely presented. The bonus tracks are great.

I hope this series adds at least another 100 titles.

Your comments on the TYCJs are helpful Late ... I have not heard the Monks yet in order to make a comparison.

Just a quick note on the artwork....I only have the Henderson State of the Tenor Vol. 1 (technically not a TYCJ but yes it is SHM) and the artwork looks fantastic....my only quibble is that I wish they had put the liner notes in English in larger print in the booklet.... the mini size replica of the back cover liner notes are too microscopic for me to read. But the sound on this SHM release is gorgeous.

Edited January 30, 2014 by skeith

[Clunky]

Any one heard the Jutta Hipp disc..?

[mjzee]

my only quibble is that I wish they had put the liner notes in English in larger print in the booklet.... the mini size replica of the back cover liner notes are too microscopic for me to read. But the sound on this SHM release is gorgeous.

2 solutions:

1) Buy a good reading magnifying glass (available at Barnes & Noble in the book light section)

2) Scan the liner notes and view it on your computer screen, where you can magnify the size.

[etherbored]

Still doesn't diminish my enthusiasm for this new series, though. And now you guys have me wondering about the SHM of Odyssey of Iska, one of the few McMasters I was actually content with. Argh!

i was *never* content with it. at all. i became even less so after hearing an original (vinyl) pressing of it.... another one i really don't care for is 'total eclipse'.

my shipment is still another week out. i knew i should have been on the ball and had a pre-order waiting for release day, but with something like 40 unopened japanese pressings sitting around i almost felt guilty adding to that stack. almost...

I've been playing the hell out of On Broadway by Reuben Wilson - it smokes!

oh - that hurts....

[skeith]

my only quibble is that I wish they had put the liner notes in English in larger print in the booklet.... the mini size replica of the back cover liner notes are too microscopic for me to read. But the sound on this SHM release is gorgeous.

2 solutions:

1) Buy a good reading magnifying glass (available at Barnes & Noble in the book light section)

2) Scan the liner notes and view it on your computer screen, where you can magnify the size.

yeah,....thanks.. I know I can do that ....just wish it had been handled in the booklet.

Thank you Lon, David Ayers, erwbol, and Late for your comments comparing the SHMs to RVGs.

[Daniel A]

another one i really don't care for is 'total eclipse'.

Do you mean the mastering of previous reissues or the recording? I know you like the music.