Suggestions sought: Speaker wires

[Jay]

GA: I enjoyed this review when it appeared in Stereophile for what that's worth:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-loudspeaker

[GA Russell]

Thanks Jay!

[jazzbo]

Looks like a good pair to try GA.

[Scott Dolan]

While I myself don't have what would be considered a high end audio sytem, I've had buddies in the past that did. And I'm talking five figure rigs. And while I appreciate that jazzbo has taken this on as a personal hobby, I caution anyone to buy into the audiophile myths, of which there are many.

Speaker cables are one of the worst. I've used everything from cheap, shitty 24 gauge cable from Walmart to lamp cord to heavily shielded 10 guage Monster cable. Sorry, but once you get below 16 gauge for any runs shorter than 25ft. you can use just about anything. And if you hear a difference between one set of wires of another, you've simply done nothing more than talk yourself into hearing a difference.

Here are my current wires. http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/interconnects/products/uss-2-speaker-cable

Changing your components will result in you hearing a difference. Changing your cables won't. Unless you were using a cheapo product that should have never been on the market in the first place. I wish I had a nickel for every time someone told me I needed an expensive HDMI cable. That's quite possibly one of the biggest scams in existence right now.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Scott Dolan

[jazzbo]

I beg to differ, but that's fine. Speaker cable and interconnect differences are easy to hear if you have requisite components. I'll say no more.

Edited December 28, 2013 by jazzbo

[Scott Dolan]

Sorry, I've heard the "requisite equipment", and no they don't. Not past a certain point. As long as you're not buying $.99 RCA cables at the dollar store, the components are the only things that will make a change in the sound quality.

It's not called power of suggestion for nothing.

And I respect anyone who gets into the audiophile hobby. I just feel that many have a difficult time recognizing diminishing returns and often fool themselves with their own zeal.

[Stefan Wood]

The old snake oil argument. The endless debate in the audiophile world. I actually agree with Lon; there is a difference, depending on the equipment one has.

[Scott Dolan]

And if I set up multiple rigs of varying quality and switched out different sets of cables neither of you would be able to identify which was which. I've actually had that proven to me by multiple people. Hell, there have been double blind tests conducted at the university level.

People possess the power to make themselves believe anything. The placebo effect isn't mythology. But claiming speaker cable that costs $100 a ft will sound different than, for example, the Emotiva cables I linked to early is.

The one thing you'll never hear an audiophile say concerning expensive equipment and interconnects is, "that's just nonsense". Because there is no line of demarcation in that world. No reference points that will signify the beginning of diminishing returns. It can be found in many hobbies. Probably most hobbies. It's just more glaring in the audiophile world, IMO, because I am an audio enthusiast as well.

And it's exactly why you have people that claim that you "need" the most expensive and heavy duty Toslink and HDMI cables you can afford.

No, you don't.

[Stefan Wood]

I'm not advocating buying expensive wiring. I am advocating synergy between the components, and wiring is one of many things to consider when setting up a system.

[Scott Dolan]

Can you expand on that?

[Scott Dolan]

Here is some excellent reading.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[jazzbo]

I've been through all this stuff over and over through the years. Believe what you like. I have found excellent wire (that didn't cost arms and legs) and am enjoying their use.

[Scott Dolan]

And I'm happy for you. My main point was only that the mythology of speaker wires leads many to pay far more than they ever should for something they've been led to believe is superior.

It's the Monster Cable syndrome, IMO. It was through their slippery advertising and infiltration into the market that folks started believing the "better speaker wire" fairy tale. And as I stated before it has now graduated to digital Toslink and HDMI cables, and leads far too many to buy the most expensive versions of each that they can afford.

$1.00 per ft is more than enough for non-terminated speaker cable that will deliver peak performance.

And find the absolute cheapest Toslink and HDMI cables you can. All they are delivering is packetized digital data streams which do not suffer degradation.

[jazzbo]

I have never heard a one dollar per foot speaker cable that was neutral enough for one of my systems.

I'm not going to argue about it though. I trust my ears, and not science nor myth.

[Scott Dolan]

I'm not sure how one doesn't trust science. Your only alternative is faith.

Actually, it's pretty interesting that in many A/B/X tests for HDMI cables the test subjects never see any difference in picture quality, but erroneously claim to hear differences in sound quality.

I learned a long, long time ago that our ears have a bizarre and innate power to conspire with our brains to lie to us.

Your ears can tell you that transistor amps sound different than vacuum tube amps. This is true. (which is better is an argument for the ages. I lean tubes, personally. But I like both)

Your ears can tell you that a $100 dollar turntable doesn't sound quite as good as a $1,000 turntable. True again.

Your ears can tell you that your old $500 a pair Pioneer speakers do not sound anywhere near as good as your $5,000 a pair Martin Logans. True. True. True.

But when they tell you $1.00 a ft speaker cables aren't "transparent" enough for your system they are lying their asses off. It's great that you can afford it, enjoy it, and allegedly hear it. I'm just concerned that others will buy into it. Chasing audio unicorns is expensive enough without over-paying for something that is completely unnecessary. Save that money and use it for things that actually do increase the sound quality. Acoustical room treatments, for example.

I'm no James Randi, but having bought into way too many audiophile myths back in the day I like to provide a counterbalance when the bullshit starts to thicken.

[jazzbo]

Scott, give it a rest with me, I just don't buy into your beliefs about wire.

I can trust science to a point, but science is always trying to explain things and doesn't always get it right. What you are believing about wire I don't think is as right as you do. And my ears have backed me up to my own satisfaction, enough that what you are saying seems like bullshit to me.

So, pat yourself on the back, feel superior. I'm out.

Edited December 28, 2013 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

Sounds like everybody's happy with what they got. No sense in trying to convince somebody they shouldn't be.

[Scott Dolan]

I'm not. Please re-read what I wrote. I want others to hear the other side of the coin from someone who is also an audio enthusiast.

If I can prevent someone from blowing a massive amount of money on something that is 100% unnecessary, I will. I had a buddy at work that had recently purchased a HDTV and Blu-ray player. Well, the snake handler that helped him pick everything out (commission free, BTW) convinced him he "needed" this $95 HDMI cable so he could get the highest resolution in picture and sound. Even went through the contortions of "explaining" the degradation and signal loss he'd experience with cheaper cables. Someone else at work, who is a pretty dedicated audiophile, congratulated him on his purchase and praised him for taking the leap and springing for a high quality cable. I, OTOH, had hime bring his worthless HDMI cable over to my place where I switched it out several times with my $8 Dynex HDMI cable until he realized he'd been had. Luckily, this store had an excellent return policy and he got his money back and went to Best Buy and got the same $8 Dynex cable.

I'm more concerned with making smart decisions so that you can stretch your audio budget and only spend big money on those things that are actually worth it. And only having someone tell you that $1.00 a ft speakers cables will not give you peak audio performance leads those new to the game to believe that's the case.

And it isn't. So instead of having a couple hundred bucks extra to go towards their pre-amp/amp/speakers/whatever they end up with that money wrapped up in astoundingly diminished returns.

jazzbo, look up speaker wire A/B/X tests on Google. Several audiophile groups from all over the world have conducted them. Please explain to me how the overwhelming majority of those tests, conducted by and tested upon fellow audiophiles, end up somewhere in the 50-60% range of accuracy.

[jazzbo]

I've read that stuff over and over over the years Scott. I'm just not going over to your side, sorry. Be superior! Pat yourself on the back! I'm not participating in further discussion.

[Scott Dolan]

Who said anything about being superior? Don't go strawman on me just because I'm presenting a balanced counter-argument to your beliefs. You stick with your belief, and I'll stick with the evidence that proves it's all in the mind.

Perhaps the findings are incorrect, but they aren't in my experience.

It's like an audiophile buddy of mine once asked me: "I've spent over ten thousand dollars on my system, why would I only put $50 speakers cables on it?!"

That mindset perfectly sums up what too often ails the audiophile community.

[jazzbo]

Okay sure sounded like you were being superior, came off that way, and you seemed so proud you don't spend money on wire.

I get that you think the science shows what you think it shows. I just think the science isn't complete about it all.

I've done experiments and had fun with it and found that some wire makes a bigger difference than it "should" and have accepted the improvement. And enjoy the improvement. And am probably not done experimenting. I trust my own experience more than anything else. There's my stance in a nutshell. I don't believe it's wishful thinking or in my mind. I actually wish wire didn't matter.

I'd invite anyone who thinks they may hear some improvements to experiment. If you feel there's no improvement possible, stick with what you have.

Edited December 28, 2013 by jazzbo

[Scott Dolan]

Fair enough, though I'm trusting the words of fellow audiophiles. Not to mention my own experiments on both my own rigs, and those of others who have much more higher end systems.

There are two things I've learned over the years that are completely worthless when it comes to increasing sound quality. Speaker wire beyond the 12-16 gauge level at more than a dollar a foot, and bi-wiring. Some audiophiles will swear by both, but I've never experienced a shred of evidence to back up either.

[Leeway]

I used to be fairly skeptical about speaker wiring, until I had the chance to compare wires using the same high-quality (not a tech term ) speakers and amp/preamp. What I found was that some of the speaker wires produced a brighter sound, some darker, some more balanced/neutral.

I think the key was having electronics and speakers that had the capacity to make fine distinctions. For a mid-fi system, that ability to resolve sounds is much less, and speaker wires are less critical.

What I do know was that changing out the speakers changed the sound. Psychoacoustics is a pretty subjective area, so I'm not surprised if someone does not achieve the same results.

[Scott Dolan]

Sorry, that's a bunch of elitist nonsense.

I've heard a fair enough share of "highly resolving" rigs. The term itself is a silly self-congratulatory term audiophiles made up to validate their own decisions to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a stereo system.

And they always take great pleasure offering their phony sympathy to those who didn't get fooled into spending hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on speaker cables.

Most audiophiles, in my experience anyway, went straight from whatever they grew up with to hi end equipment and have no clue what lies between. I've had the good fortune to hear low, mid, and hi-fi. Not only do I know the difference, but I also know the high-minded full of shit attitude that is somewhat pervasive amongst those who take a little too much pride in their five and six figure rigs.

Even though I know high-end rigs sound phenomenal, and have always enjoyed hearing them whenever I had the chance, I will always be a mid-fi guy because the bang for the buck factor exceeds the high end stuff by enormous leaps and bounds.

Kevin Bresnahan summed it up perfectly earlier in this thread:

"I guess it's the 4 years of college (BSEE) and almost 30 years of working in a test lab, but wires simply cannot do what some people claim. Buy better cables because they'll last longer and look better, but don't buy them to somehow improve the sound of your system. It won't."

Electrical engineers, oddly enough, know far more about the capabilities of wires carrying electrical pulses than the layman does. Not to mention he's a well-established audiophile.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Scott Dolan

[Leeway]

Geez, I didn't know I was part of the elite . Anyway, no point replying to your tantrum. I just gave the results of my own little experiment. I'm satisfied with that.