BFT #116 Discussion Thread

[Hot Ptah]

Greetings!

Sorry to be so late (again), listening for the first time while typing/reacting but the usual thanks and stipulations firmly in place as ever, let's go to town (and stay for supper!)

TRACK ONE - I believe that's Sun Ra playing a Fletcher Henderson chart form that Hat Hut album. Yeah, that's John Gilmore. Don't know waht to say about that...so much context and subtext and all that stuff...but we'll never hear all that ever again. It's gone, as all things eventually are. Except as recordings, of course. But here it is, science being dropped in that uniquely Ra-ian way. Catch it and you keep it!

It is Sun Ra playing Ftetcher Henderson, but not from the Hat Hut album "Sunrise in Different Dimensions." I like this version better, from the Horo album "Unity".

TRACK TWO - Artie Shaw w/Lips. Didn't know that right away, actually thought the band sounded like Goodman's on the intro, but then the clarinet & strings gave it away. Some pretty interesting personnel too, session FF as listed here: http://www.mosaicrecords.com/discography.asp?number=244-MD-CD&price=$119.00&copies=7%20CDs I'm guessin g that's Auld on tenor & Jack Jenney on bone. Auls is pretty well known, but Jack Jenney (although...Ray Coniff? Possible?)...famous for "Stardust" (again with Shaw_, but other than that, I don't really know his work, which is an error on my part. Not sure what the chronolgy would be, but around this same time you had Guarniei, Mike Bryan, & Dave Tough playing in Goodman's band, although at the same time, I can't say. But those ware three good guys (and in Tough's case, an outstanding guy) to have in those chairs. And dude, I so much love the blends sax sections were getting in those days. They all had their own sound, but they all blended so beautifully. Brass sections too, but the saxes...even an outfit like Glenn Miller's, one that was basically pop even when it was jazz, lord have mercy, that sax section, I just listen to them and marvel. That's another thing you'll likely never hear again, because the dynamics of playing have changed completely - venues, amplifications, horns, mouthpieces, arranging demands/techniques, everything. But geez, a big band is a thing of joy, except when it's not, but lord, when it is, it IS.

Correct, and great insights and observations.

TRACK THREE - Very Ellington-ish in concept, but the drummer is not Sonny Greer, and the piano player is not Duke, although strongly coming from there. Interesting piece, especially the rhythm section, and especially the drummer. And the trumpeter does not call attention to his/her self, which put him/her right there in the Freddie Jenkins/Arthur Whetsol/Shorty Baker (even!) lineage of truly noble Ellington interpretive trumpetes, although this is not Ellington. And even though it's not, it does nothing to cheapen the originator, and just how rare is that, ever?

Ellington is not an originator to this artist.

TRACK FOUR - Ra again? Sounds familiar, but I can't place it exactly. Sounds like a revue number (I would say "floor show", but that has trivializing implications in general conversations), something with at least one dancer being showcased in front of the band. Something "exotic" (another word that has generally trivializing implications), but really part of Ra's (or whoever's) overall quest to create a mythology of self that overrode all the trivial (for real) mythologies that had been foisted on his mind by others. The visual is a powerful tool of conveying information, people hear with their eyes (as they say), and dancers, well hey. Try to not look.

I saw Sun Ra live in the 1970s with some very skilled young female interpretive dancers dancing wildly, and really well, to songs like this. You could get blown away in those days at some jazz concerts, including Sun Ra's--blown away in a very good and wild way. That has been lost for the most part, sadly.

TRACK FIVE - I recognize "Button Up Your Overcoat" and should recognize the trumpeter...a gorgeous Pops-inspired sound...it's a trio, no bass, but do you need one with that piano player? HA! I think not! Wild guess - Ruby Braff & Mel Powell? It just has the vibe of those two. No idea who the drummer would be though (but kudos for doing the right thing all the time, you're exposed as hell in a context like this). Mel Powell, now there's somebody who can slip under the radar if you're not careful, Earl Hines with a less crazy sense of time and with the occasionally arresting harmonic tangent. Braff was around for a long time, and kinda wore out his welcome as far as I'm concerned, just too much of a good thing for too long (my problem, though, not his, not at all), but always good in small (enough) doses. And this is a very nice dose. Nice and tasty.

It IS Mel Powell with Ruby Braff! I thought of checking them out because of a post by Chuck Nessa on this board years ago, in which he said that he returns to Mel Powell and Ruby Braff to remind himself why he loves jazz, or something to that effect. I will find Chuck's post for my Reveal.

TRACK SIX - Well hell, that's Jaws. Get the rest of the shit out of the way and let Jaws play. Always. Always. Even with Griff, although then it's not quite such a pressing imperative. Oh, there's Clark Terry...is this from Afro-Jaws? I never really got into that one, although I did rescue a copy of the LP cover from a dumpster in 1979 (true). But, yeah, More Jaws, please, less "other".

Yes, correct.

TRACK SEVEN - For the piano, the dots themselves are not all that interesting, but the way they're connected sure are. Is that Richard Williams on trumpet? Oliver Nelson on tenor? But not Red garland, right? Ok, I am confused. Maybe they should have left the "Latin trimmings" alone?

No correct guesses here. i am a little surprised that no one knows this music.

TRACK EIGHT - I kept waiting for the point to come when I could say "ok, that's enough of that" and it never came. Whazzup widdat? "Funny" time feel in the bass/drum hookup, it's like the drummer is just a tad behind on his ride cymbal, which ends up with it hitting a pretty hard backbeat, almost like Vernel Fournier did in a toally different way with Ahmad Jamal back in the day. Of course, nobody's "behind" in the sense of not having good time, that's just where this particular pocket is. And once you realize that no, it's not going to lag/scuffle, it's going to groove, then you can smile out loud about all that. I dig that bass palyer too, nice lines, good notes, and in that pocket.

This recording makes me feel good.

TRACK NINE - I kept waiting for the point to come when I could say "ok, that's enough of that" and it came pretty quickly. The time feels tight, not flowing. Not intense, just tense. Not by incompetence or anything, just how they feel it, and...sorry, I don't. All the gesturing in the world falls flat if the time don't flow. It don't meant a thing, etc.

To each their own. I think they hit a nice, intense spot near the end where they are playing wildly, with about as much controlled intensity as one could ever want. But that is just me.

TRACK TEN - Oh HELL yeah! Barry! And Sam! I was in a group a while back, well, "group", a duo, me and a drummer, and we played this tune. Transcribed rather easily actually, a few odd-metered bars here and there, but a very natural-falling composition, it really is. And that last phrase, it seems to be a lift from the Kent jingle line "smooth taste, fine tobacco, that's what happiness is"...right? This is one of the great sorta-kinda "lost" great jazz records of its time. Hard as hell to not play this, the lead/title cut overnadoverandoverandover, but once you do, it's all just superior. Ask for it by name!

Correct. Nice thoughts on this recording. I never thought of the Kent jingle before.

TRACK ELEVEN - whoa...I never even thought about there being a point when I could say "ok, that's enough of that"... no idea who it is, but...that's a helluva lot of information, all of it sound (no pun intended).

Sun Ra solo piano--others have identified it.

TRACK TWELVE - I swear, that tenor player sounds like either Jimmy Heath or Grover Washington, that tone, upper register in particular. The tune itself, I could get tired of it for it's cleverness, except it's so damn clever. Ok, that's Metheney, so this must be that Midem album that's been around on a gazillion different labels, right, with The Heath Brothers & Gary Burton & Brubeck & BB & Chick, right? I always avided it thinking it would just be some silly jamming, but this is actually pretty good. Well, dig - Grover got a part of his sound from Jimmy Heath, that Philly thing. So...information gets conveyed in all kinds of ways. ok? Did the Heath Brothers record this on Columbia? That's such an infectious tune, crossover appeal out the ass, in the best way.

It IS the Heath Brothers--Jimmy, Percy and Tootie, with Pat Metheny. The Heath Brothers did a much better version of this song as the first track on their 1980 Columbia album, "Live at the Public Theater", which I recommend highly. You are the only one to recognize Jimmy Heath here.

TRACK THIRTEEN - Well, that's a saxophone quartet alright. And that's "Airegin" alright. Some of the voicings are Hemphill-esque, the group intonation and time gets pleasantly quirky at times, very occasionally for all of it, but...none of the playing is really on point. But that sopranoist is finger-wiggling in such a way that suggests some kind of knowing that might be better heard in another context, almost Sam River-ish in a not yet fully/barely formed kind of way...but I dunno, maybe not? The balance between native wit and learned skill is not necessarily indicating itself towards a positive balance. Not necessarily, though. Maybe it's a lot of badass cats operating outside of their comfort zone recording not particualrly well. But the soprano spots...whoever that is, I think they know more than the others. How much that is, hell if I can tell by this one cut. But see the comments for Track Two and see what I mean about sax section sound never gonna be like that again. Those guys never knew that anythng could sound like this, and these guys could only play like that by making a consciously retro-fit of their entire minds and beings, and even then/once that...yeah (or to the point, no). That's just how it is.

I think you will be shocked at who this is.

TRACK FOURTEEN - "Lament". I never appreciated what a great tune this is until actually playing it semi-regularly (just within the last two years, actually). This pianist is very much staying inside the tune, which is, I think, the best place to be with it. It's not a structure you can really open up/stretch out on with wild abandon. Well, maybe you could, but I don't know how well for how long. It's not that type of thing. It is what is, and is best treated as such, just a beautiful melody with a lot of harmonic movement in the service of that melody, movement that can trick you into thinking you're going to land some place other than you actually do (if you're paying attention, and if you're not, well...UH-oh! )

I find this recording to be quite beautiful.

TRACK FIFTEEN - As with Track Nine & Thirteen, I feel, in different ways, a certain lack of fluidity in the expression. That type of thing is subjective, but no matter how clean music (any music) is on top, there should always be a spot somewhere, even if it's in a place that is beyond hidden, that stanks. Because everybody stanks. Babies stank. Old folks stank, everybody in between stanks, you stank when you're alive and you stank when you're dead. Stank is beyond "funky" or "nasty" or any of that. Stank is uncreatable and stank is irrevocable. So if music ain't got that stank in it somewhere, I get to...wondering. Maybe it's in here and I just don't know where to go to get it. I'm a patient man, but time is tight, as the radio used to tell me.

Again, to each their own. i find this to be moving and beautiful. Just me.

But apart from that, hey, nice compilation here, plenty of provocative implication in most of the music. Wish I'd had the opening to get to it much sooner than this. My loss.

Thanks for the intriguing comments. I am glad you liked much of it.

Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Edited November 30, 2013 by Hot Ptah

[webbcity]

Hi Bill,

Sorry to be responding so late! November was a difficult month. But I was determined to get this in... better late than never I hope?

Some really great stuff here, thanks for putting it together. I've just listened to everything today. Some notes were typed up while listening, others were done after the fact. I haven't peeked at any of the above yet, but will do so as soon as I paste my comments right here...

Track 1 - Love the sound and feel of this...loose, dirty, full of joy and grit and the same time. Loving this. Hmmm...I'm also guessing this one is meant to be a trick? Is this Sun Ra? The organ sound has definitely got me thinking Sun Ra, though at first I might have guessed something in a different neighborhood. Plus I think I hear John Gilmore on there. This is terrific.

Track 2 - Fantastic arrangement, definitely an epic performance. I really like the way this is structured, with the clarinet featured, followed by the vocals (which I love), and then the pause before the next section. And the solos are perfection. There's really nothing I don't like about this. Curious to know what it is, because I need more of this kind of stuff.

Track 3 - This one isn't doing as much for me personally, but I don't dislike it. Just doesn't reach me like tracks 1 and 2 did. The piano player is very interesting though...by far the best part of this. He is saying something.

Track 4 - Okay, here we go...right off the bat I love it. Nice feel and mood. This one is taking me to outer space...not Sun Ra again, is it? Oddly enough the piano first reminded me of Nina Simone's piano playing, as on tunes like "Sinnerman." The bass playing is great here...sinewy. Nice little epic piece with overtones of Egypt. Love it.

Track 5 - Again the piano player stands out to me. Don't know if that's by design or not, but so far a lot of these piano players are hitting me in the right spot. The piano solo here is much more interesting than the trumpet solo, to me.

Track 6 - I like this, but it doesn't really take off for me until the 2:20 mark, where the tenor solo starts and the drummer changes up his thing. At that point it feels like they let go of the reins a bit and start cookin. I'm a big fan of the tenor player, anxious to find out who it is.

Track 7 - Another interesting arrangement. I like it when it's a surprise that there are horns... I thought it was a trio date initially. I like the piano player and the whole intro bit, but once again this really takes off about halfway through where the horns come in. Terrific solos. Man, who is the bass player? Love the bass solo. I'm sure I should know who this is, but I don't. Classic stuff. For a minute I thought it might be Cedar Walton on piano and Kenny Dorham on trumpet, but I have a feeling I'm 0 for 2 there.

Track 8 - Great feel, swinging. I feel like there's a Billy Higgins influence in the drums, but it doesn't sound like Higgins. The piano player is good. The whole band swings in an effortless kind of way.

Track 9 - Nice ensemble, interesting piece of music with a touch of the eastern. I like the improvised bit of this the best though, especially where things start getting edgy. I always want to say Billy Bang when I hear something like this, but I'm really not confident in that guess. That's really just based on some of the "effects" during the improv but the rest of it really doesn't sound like Bang.

Track 10 - Okay, from the first notes this is very obviously Dave Holland, Barry Altschul, George Lewis and Anthony Braxton. But who is the piano player? Muhal maybe? I don't know this one, but I like it. Is this on one of the Arista albums? Holland's solo is mind-boggling as usual. And this is just a hell of an ensemble. Hang on, that's not Braxton. Hmmm...I figured there had to be a trick in here somewhere. Can't ID the tenor player, but whoever it is, this is five stars all the way.

Track 11 - This pianist has an interesting approach that I really like...A nice meeting of soul, tradition and "outside" touches. Like constantly dipping in and out of different neighborhoods. This kind of approach always makes me think of Stanley Cowell, though this definitely isn't Cowell. But a similar kind of modus operandi. This is killer.

Track 12 - Hmmm...this is an odd one. The intro fooled me, for one...I thought this was going to a much different place but then the tune comes in and we're somewhere else. This is a bit too "commercial" for me personally. The tenor player has chops a-plenty, but I'm not hearing a story. This just isn't my bag. Wait a minute...what the heck? Pat Metheny and his synth guitar? Now I am completely thrown. I was gonna place this in the mid to late 70s but now I don't know what's going on. This one just confuses me.

Track 13 - This is cool. "Airegin," right? I always get this confused with other tunes but I think I got it right this time. Great arrangement for horns. While I like the performance overall, nothing really stands out in the solos for me. Hmm. Jury's out for me on this one. The ensemble playing is good but I don't feel like the improvising is at the same level.

Track 14 - Beautiful...perfection. No guesses on the piano player, but I like this. Very emotional, deep playing. Excellent.

Track 15 - I'll be honest, I didn't expect to like this as much as I did. Just because of the European/Classical influence...not usually my thing. However...this is very good. It builds nicely and the ensemble works incredibly well together. Couldn't begin to guess the players, but for some reason I wonder if it's the piano player's date? In any case, very nice, and a cool way to end the BFT.

A very enjoyable bunch of tunes! Thanks!!

[webbcity]

Ah, I almost guessed Flanagan on #14...great! Coincidentally, I came across that album elsewhere online just recently. It's on my list to buy now.

And I should have got #10... used to have this album! Need to get it back.

[Hot Ptah]

Hi Bill,

Sorry to be responding so late! November was a difficult month. But I was determined to get this in... better late than never I hope?

Some really great stuff here, thanks for putting it together. I've just listened to everything today. Some notes were typed up while listening, others were done after the fact. I haven't peeked at any of the above yet, but will do so as soon as I paste my comments right here...

Track 1 - Love the sound and feel of this...loose, dirty, full of joy and grit and the same time. Loving this. Hmmm...I'm also guessing this one is meant to be a trick? Is this Sun Ra? The organ sound has definitely got me thinking Sun Ra, though at first I might have guessed something in a different neighborhood. Plus I think I hear John Gilmore on there. This is terrific.

Yes, Sun Ra and John Gilmore. I think it is terrific too. I feel fortunate that I saw Sun Ra and Arkestra perform songs like this several times in the late 1970s and early 1980s. It was always tremendous when they turned away from the avant garde spectacle, sat down in their chairs, and ripped off some rousing swing tunes.

Track 2 - Fantastic arrangement, definitely an epic performance. I really like the way this is structured, with the clarinet featured, followed by the vocals (which I love), and then the pause before the next section. And the solos are perfection. There's really nothing I don't like about this. Curious to know what it is, because I need more of this kind of stuff.

It has been identified by others. As the Reveal will note, I heard this on a multi-disc Smithsonian box of big band era performances, and it stood out for me among all of the other great recordings in the box set.

Track 3 - This one isn't doing as much for me personally, but I don't dislike it. Just doesn't reach me like tracks 1 and 2 did. The piano player is very interesting though...by far the best part of this. He is saying something.

There is a very good reason why this pianist is saying something. He is a giant.

Track 4 - Okay, here we go...right off the bat I love it. Nice feel and mood. This one is taking me to outer space...not Sun Ra again, is it? Oddly enough the piano first reminded me of Nina Simone's piano playing, as on tunes like "Sinnerman." The bass playing is great here...sinewy. Nice little epic piece with overtones of Egypt. Love it.

It is Sun Ra, from the late 1950s.

Track 5 - Again the piano player stands out to me. Don't know if that's by design or not, but so far a lot of these piano players are hitting me in the right spot. The piano solo here is much more interesting than the trumpet solo, to me.

The pianist is Mel Powell, who shortly after this abandoned jazz to become a classical composer.

Track 6 - I like this, but it doesn't really take off for me until the 2:20 mark, where the tenor solo starts and the drummer changes up his thing. At that point it feels like they let go of the reins a bit and start cookin. I'm a big fan of the tenor player, anxious to find out who it is.

As others have noted, it's Lockjaw on tenor.

Track 7 - Another interesting arrangement. I like it when it's a surprise that there are horns... I thought it was a trio date initially. I like the piano player and the whole intro bit, but once again this really takes off about halfway through where the horns come in. Terrific solos. Man, who is the bass player? Love the bass solo. I'm sure I should know who this is, but I don't. Classic stuff. For a minute I thought it might be Cedar Walton on piano and Kenny Dorham on trumpet, but I have a feeling I'm 0 for 2 there.

You are 0 for 2, but then no one identified this one.

Track 8 - Great feel, swinging. I feel like there's a Billy Higgins influence in the drums, but it doesn't sound like Higgins. The piano player is good. The whole band swings in an effortless kind of way.

I like it too!

Track 9 - Nice ensemble, interesting piece of music with a touch of the eastern. I like the improvised bit of this the best though, especially where things start getting edgy. I always want to say Billy Bang when I hear something like this, but I'm really not confident in that guess. That's really just based on some of the "effects" during the improv but the rest of it really doesn't sound like Bang.

It's not Bang.

Track 10 - Okay, from the first notes this is very obviously Dave Holland, Barry Altschul, George Lewis and Anthony Braxton. But who is the piano player? Muhal maybe? I don't know this one, but I like it. Is this on one of the Arista albums? Holland's solo is mind-boggling as usual. And this is just a hell of an ensemble. Hang on, that's not Braxton. Hmmm...I figured there had to be a trick in here somewhere. Can't ID the tenor player, but whoever it is, this is five stars all the way.

It has been identified by others. It is Muhal, and Sam Rivers.

Track 11 - This pianist has an interesting approach that I really like...A nice meeting of soul, tradition and "outside" touches. Like constantly dipping in and out of different neighborhoods. This kind of approach always makes me think of Stanley Cowell, though this definitely isn't Cowell. But a similar kind of modus operandi. This is killer.

Sun Ra, solo piano. He was underrated as a pianist, I think.

Track 12 - Hmmm...this is an odd one. The intro fooled me, for one...I thought this was going to a much different place but then the tune comes in and we're somewhere else. This is a bit too "commercial" for me personally. The tenor player has chops a-plenty, but I'm not hearing a story. This just isn't my bag. Wait a minute...what the heck? Pat Metheny and his synth guitar? Now I am completely thrown. I was gonna place this in the mid to late 70s but now I don't know what's going on. This one just confuses me.

It is an unusual combination of Pat Metheny and the Heath Brothers in concert.

Track 13 - This is cool. "Airegin," right? I always get this confused with other tunes but I think I got it right this time. Great arrangement for horns. While I like the performance overall, nothing really stands out in the solos for me. Hmm. Jury's out for me on this one. The ensemble playing is good but I don't feel like the improvising is at the same level.

Wait until you see who this is!!!

Track 14 - Beautiful...perfection. No guesses on the piano player, but I like this. Very emotional, deep playing. Excellent.

I agree with all of those thoughts.

Track 15 - I'll be honest, I didn't expect to like this as much as I did. Just because of the European/Classical influence...not usually my thing. However...this is very good. It builds nicely and the ensemble works incredibly well together. Couldn't begin to guess the players, but for some reason I wonder if it's the piano player's date? In any case, very nice, and a cool way to end the BFT.

Not the piano player's date. I like this piece myself.

A very enjoyable bunch of tunes! Thanks!!

Glad you liked them!

[JSngry]

Track 5 - Again the piano player stands out to me. Don't know if that's by design or not, but so far a lot of these piano players are hitting me in the right spot. The piano solo here is much more interesting than the trumpet solo, to me.

The pianist is Mel Powell, who shortly after this abandoned jazz to become a classical composer.

There's a nice example of Mel Powell's post-jazz work here: http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=131709&stocknum=&text=&filter=all&submit=Search

It makes for a seriously refreshing, warm, and delightful contrast to the other works on the disc.

[Hot Ptah]

Track 5 - Again the piano player stands out to me. Don't know if that's by design or not, but so far a lot of these piano players are hitting me in the right spot. The piano solo here is much more interesting than the trumpet solo, to me.

The pianist is Mel Powell, who shortly after this abandoned jazz to become a classical composer.

There's a nice example of Mel Powell's post-jazz work here: http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=131709&stocknum=&text=&filter=all&submit=Search

It makes for a seriously refreshing, warm, and delightful contrast to the other works on the disc.

Jim, I could not access this music from your link. Is your remark tongue in cheek?

[JSngry]

No, totally serious. It's a great piece. Not at all "jazz" or "jazzy". The rest of the disc's contents are serial-type things, and I hear the math on them much more than I do the music.