Bird In Macy's - Who Would Be Getting Paid?

[JSngry]

Doing some last minute Christmas shopping @ Macy's this evening, walking through the store and all of a sudden I hear Bird playing "White Christmas", the Royal Roost version (well, that would be the only choice, duh), in full, w/KD and all that, and I say to LTB hey, that's Bird, and she says huh, oh, yeah, I guess so and I get a little loud and say no, you guess so, I KNOW so, this is a fact I'm saying here, at which point some old guy looked at me wondering WTF?, so ok, move on from that, but - who'd be getting paid from that? Berlin Inc., Harry Fox, of course, but who owns the Bird recordings now, exactly who would be getting paid on Bird's end for getting the airshot into Macy's? It was on Charlie Parker Records, and then on Savoy once, but...is somebody besides the writers publishers getting some money for this, like, the people who own the rights to the recording itself? Or is that just kinda floaty o'dotey these days?

[John L]

For some years now, Bird's White Christmas has been included on a number of Christmas music compilations. I rather doubt that anybody is getting paid except maybe the music company that had the guts to release the record without regard for copyright.

[David Ayers]

Spotify seems to contain different versions of this tune by Bird, though I haven't listened to ascertain what they are, but the track lengths vary by more than a minute. A lot of them are from PD opportunists in Europe who are jamming up Spotify with meaningless reissues and compilations.

Interested to know about the different versions (if that is indeed what they are), not so interested in the speculative copyright vigilantism.

[jazztrain]

To the best of my knowledge, the only version of Bird playing "White Christmas" is from a Royal Roost broadcast (December 25, 1948). I suspect that the different timings you note are due to the presence or absence of announcements.

Spotify seems to contain different versions of this tune by Bird, though I haven't listened to ascertain what they are, but the track lengths vary by more than a minute. A lot of them are from PD opportunists in Europe who are jamming up Spotify with meaningless reissues and compilations.

Interested to know about the different versions (if that is indeed what they are), not so interested in the speculative copyright vigilantism.

[David Ayers]

@jazztrain: thanks! In fact I will check later - I just couldn't face it when I posted...

[David Ayers]

Ok they are all the same - some omit announcement, some also omit piano intro.

[medjuck]

Until recently only the publisher (and hence the composer) were paid for public performances or radio broadcasts. Either Macy's or whoever supplies the feed should have a contract with ASCAP and BMI. Most internet streaming music suppliers have also made a deal with record companies and so it is to be hoped that the performers get some piece of that.

[JSngry]

So whatever Capital is now didn't get anything for those Dean Martin & Nat Cole songs I also heard?

[medjuck]

So whatever Capital is now didn't get anything for those Dean Martin & Nat Cole songs I also heard?

Not if it's a radio broadcast. And not if the store is programming itself. Not sure about Muzak or similar services, (but I think not) yes if it's Pandora.

[marcello]

Muzak pays a very nice royalty under the the "Satellite" rate. But yes, the publisher and copyright holder should be getting a royalty.

[JSngry]

The Cole & Martin cuts were regular Capital cuts, not broadcasts. So Capital (whatever it is now) would still get something for those, correct?

Now, the Bird thing was originally a broadcast, yes, but it was also released on Everest, which I thought was done in conjunction with Doris Parker & Aubrey Mayhew in a kind of a "beat the bootlegggers" move (although it was never released by them on Charlie Parker Records...if my historical studies add up right, that material was first released on Le Jazz Cool, a perceived(?) bootleg label that nevertheless claimed sanctioning by Bird's estate in notes reprinted exactly on the Everest issue...lord only knows what kind of a shady bloodline exists there and/or how much of it remains today...but it looks like the Le Jazz Cool albums (yes, there were more than one!) were all released on Everest, as was much of the Charlie Parker Records catalog)). I thought that might have established at least some kind of shaky "ownership", but looking at my Savoy LPs of the Roost materials from the 1980s, it looks like nope. They get no credits for anything anywhere, not even as "Sources".

So hey Macy's shoppers, if you're in there before 12/25, ask for the Bird Discount, money they're saving by having this "unowned" recording in their rotation. Might not be more than a cent or two, but those pennies add up over the long haul!

I dunno, this back cover looks like Savoy to me:

[Neal Pomea]

The White Christmas version I would like to hear at Macy's is the one by John Fahey! Man could syncopate Death!

[marcello]

Jim, I have the same recording on ESP, though.

[JSngry]

Yeah, that stuff has been around, even before the internet & PD windfalls. But I think the first actual release of it was on Le Jazz Cool (there was a review in The Jazz Review, iirc), and I have a hunch that Le Jazz Cool was connected to Doris Parker. Before or after Charlie Parker Records, I don't know, but I think before(?). so maybe she just didn't have the legal skills to connect all the dots to secure a firm ownership. I recall a few casual comments over the years that Doris had these Bird tapes and was determined to get something out of them somehow, since she didn't really get anything from Bird. Maybe Le Jazz Cool was her first attempt? I also seem to recall that the ESP Bird album was the first of a planned series that never really progressed...they also did Billie & Bud(?) & Pres(??)...I should maybe get busy on reading the ESP book, maybe that's in there, what that was all about.

And that might be another topic for examination - how many of today's fiercely protective guardians of estates actually talked to Doris Parker and learned from her about how to lock it down before it gets out and never comes back? Maybe none, but it's a question worth asking, I'd think.

[medjuck]

The Cole & Martin cuts were regular Capital cuts, not broadcasts. So Capital (whatever it is now) would still get something for those, correct?

Now, the Bird thing was originally a broadcast, yes, but it was also released on Everest, which I thought was done in conjunction with Doris Parker & Aubrey Mayhew in a kind of a "beat the bootlegggers" move (although it was never released by them on Charlie Parker Records...if my historical studies add up right, that material was first released on Le Jazz Cool, a perceived(?) bootleg label that nevertheless claimed sanctioning by Bird's estate in notes reprinted exactly on the Everest issue...lord only knows what kind of a shady bloodline exists there and/or how much of it remains today...but it looks like the Le Jazz Cool albums (yes, there were more than one!) were all released on Everest, as was much of the Charlie Parker Records catalog)). I thought that might have established at least some kind of shaky "ownership", but looking at my Savoy LPs of the Roost materials from the 1980s, it looks like nope. They get no credits for anything anywhere, not even as "Sources".

So hey Macy's shoppers, if you're in there before 12/25, ask for the Bird Discount, money they're saving by having this "unowned" recording in their rotation. Might not be more than a cent or two, but those pennies add up over the long haul!

I dunno, this back cover looks like Savoy to me:

Sorry I wasn't clear. Publisher's royalties have nothing to do with whether the source is a broadcast or not. I meant if it's being broadcast on radio when you hear it. If they are using Pandora or I guess Muzak then the record company would get some money I guess even if it's a European pd semi-bootleg.

Edited December 22, 2013 by medjuck

[JSngry]

And that's what's got me curious! Who is the record company of record (sorry...) for this particular item?

[JSngry]

Ok, now there[s this...the Le Jazz Cool records ended up in the Complete Charlie Parker Records box that Membran put out, and I'm reading in that book about the history of ESP records that Bernard Stollman once represented Doris Parker. So since some of this stuff also came out on ESP, maybe that's a lead on (or towards) who got paid by Macy's.

[gmonahan]

I think Medjuck's point is that the only person getting paid by Macy's is Irving Berlin's estate by way of ASCAP.

gregmo

[JSngry]

Well, them for sure. But I think he also leaves open a payment to the label if the store is using a programming service. I'm sure Macy's would use sure a service, they're not going to let Kent in Men's Footwear bring his records to work to share with the shoppers, if you know what I mean.

[JSngry]

Last know owner? Koch Records?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=266&dat=20050408&id=z9wrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SAUGAAAAIBAJ&pg=2993,876300