Hardbopjazz Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 My vote is going to Duke Pearson. I really like the arrangement he did on Mitchell's "Boss Horn". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 (edited) soft spot for Gil Evans here. I even have the albums he did with Miles, although I generally hate Miles... Edited February 12, 2004 by couw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 and BTW, I'm not saying Gil was better per sé, but I like his work better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjobbe Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 my vote goes to Gil as I love his music but I miss one of my favourites... where is Quincey J. ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardbopjazz Posted February 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 True, I forgot to put him on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 What does "better" mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardbopjazz Posted February 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 What I ment by better, is more complex arragments. Better was too vauge of a word to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockefeller center Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Where is my complexity scale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 What I ment by better, is more complex arragments. Better was too vauge of a word to use. if that is what is meant, I retract my vote, as I wouldn't have a clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 If you're talking pure musical complexity, things like orchestration, reharmonization, difficulty of proper execution, etc, Gil wins hands down. No contest. Although, Oliver's better arrangements are a lot tougher to play correctly than they sound on a casual listen. The guy's inner voicings were often quite unusual, and getting the right blend is a bitch. And sometimes, his lines took on some pretty tricky intervallic business. The guy did a lot of hack work, but don't be fooled - he was a heavyweight as an arranger. Duke's things aren't really difficult, but they are quite ingenious. He had a unique way of voicing, a very keen ear for color and texture, and could get more sound out of fewer instruments than most folks. A very talented man, whose arrangements, like Nelson's but in a different way, offer more than might first meet the ear. Dameron is an archetype. Nothing really "difficult" about his writing NOW, but that's because he's been copied so much that his innovations have become second nature for several generations of players and writers. We should all give thanks. Where's Thad? Look in the dictionary under "difficult", "insane", "off the wall", and "what the hell is THIS", and you'll see the same illustration everytime - a Thad Jones 2nd Tenor part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 I don't want to take anything away from the other guys but it's Gil Evans for me. A complete original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 If you're talking pure musical complexity, things like orchestration, reharmonization, difficulty of proper execution, etc, Gil wins hands down. No contest. Although, Oliver's better arrangements are a lot tougher to play correctly than they sound on a casual listen. The guy's inner voicings were often quite unusual, and getting the right blend is a bitch. And sometimes, his lines took on some pretty tricky intervallic business. The guy did a lot of hack work, but don't be fooled - he was a heavyweight as an arranger. Pretty much my impression as a listener: Gil Evans sounds difficult. Belabored in his worser moments. I've always thought of him as a musician's musician in the bad sense (one of those things we non-musicians say to each other with an arch look while flashing the secret cryptic hand sign). Sorry, couldn't resist. Is that the right emoticon for mischievous pleasure? Oliver Nelson on the other hand sounds rich. At least when he's not sounding schmaltzy. Sometimes even then. So, Nelson by three falls and a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 (edited) Gil's music IS difficult. But when he had a band who lived with it long enough to get over that hump and FEEL it, Good Gawd what a treasure it was. Unfortunately, that didn't happen on a regular basis until the 70s. Other than SKETCHES, I think the things w/Miles require a certain "imagianation" on the part of the really astute listener to hear past the "difficulties" the players are often having (hardly ever MAJOR, but seldom fully in the interpretive pocket either. The nature of the beast when it comes to studio time, rehearsal time, etc.). But it's imagination I'm more than willing to expend, because DAMN what sounds that guy conjured up! The "problem" is not with the writing, I assure you! Edited February 12, 2004 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Other than SKETCHES, I think the things w/Miles require a certain "imagianation" on the part of the really astute listener to hear past the "difficulties" the players are often having (hardly ever MAJOR, but seldom fully in the interpretive pocket either. I'll just tag along with Jim's eloquence here and add that the resulting tension is what often makes "great" music "great". Hearing something played perfectly can get old. I'm still not as much of a fan of larger groups, but listening to Gil Evans is one of the best ways for me to appreciate what can be done in that context. I love Benny Golson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Listening to Gil's band behind Miles on that Robert Herridge TV show, you can hear the difference that "familarity" makes to interpretation. The player aren't reading the stuff cold in the studio w/the pressures of deadlines, they've heard the music for several years, and play it with a confidence and relaxed power that the originals, fine as they were, only hinted at. Now, speaking of Oliver, I'd give my next door neighbor's left nut (he'd not mind, I'm sure, and if he would, well, I don't much like him anyway...) to get BLACK BROWN & BEAUTIFUL out on CD. THAT is a masterpiece that's on the verge of being "lost", if it hasn't already been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdd Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 You need to add Slide Hampton, Charles tolliver, Jimmy Heath and Kenny Wheeler if you want a complete picture IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 I voted for Dameron, thinking that he was the best composer. Tomorrow I might prefer one of the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Gil is my favorite of the four, but as an arranger. I don't really think of him as a composer as much. He was such a great arranger, though, he really "re-composed" many tunes. Best composer of the bunch? I'd vote for Tadd Dameron. I've been playing some of his tunes lately, and they're really well structured and fun, and have held up well through the years. Phil Kelly! What do you think? There should be two polls, really. It's too broad a topic to be able to provide sufficient choices and not leave many names out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Impossible to vote. If it is arranger and composer, well, Gil Evans was not much of a composer. I prefer being asked for a favourite, but better or worse ... all these guys were very good, as were Thad Jones, Bob Brookmeyer, Clare Fischer, and so many others. I hear that "American thing to be # 1" (Don Cherry) chime in here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Just what was the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Agreeing with many of the objections stated... my vote goes for Tadd Dameron (I love her compositions) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Agreeing with many of the objections stated... my vote goes for Tadd Dameron (I love her compositions) Tadd was a chick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 (edited) Agreeing with many of the objections stated... my vote goes for Tadd Dameron (I love her compositions) Tadd was a chick? Sure, man- where'd you think the title "Ladybird" came from? .....or "Mating Call"...........? Edited February 13, 2004 by Free For All Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Agreeing with many of the objections stated... my vote goes for Tadd Dameron (I love her compositions) Tadd was a chick? That´s a mistake you make when English is not your first language, you didn´t study it as much as you should have, you´re posting from work, and your boss is around.... B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 No problem, EKE BBB- my Spanish really sucks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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