The Sleaziness of Definitive

[paul secor]

Some time ago, I got an e-mail from a friend and thought that it was worth passing on:

"A couple of years ago I found a used set of the complete Parker Dial recordings on Japanese CD (Stateside) at Jack's. Copyright 1988.

Now, I don't know if you ever play CDs on your computer (I don't do it much, except when I'm using some "slow-downer" software to help me transcribe a tune). In any event, Windows Media Player takes some kind of digital ID from your CD, looks it up on the Web, and displays the cover art of your CD on the Media Player screen, and gives you the track names and artist. (I don't really know how the whole thing works -- however, I do know that if you're not connected to the Web, the art and the track listing don't show up.)

The other day I put one of the Parker CDs in the player, and what pops up but the cover shot of the Definitive label Parker Dial collection.

Back in 1988 when Stateside produced their set, there was no Internet database of CD covers. The Stateside CDs may even be o/p.

I'm not even sure Definitive existed as of the late '80s -- I don't recall seeing any of their stuff until the early 2000s.

For the Stateside CD to show up on Windows Media Player with the Definitive cover art, this means that not only did Definitive bootleg the Stateside CDs, but they must have made direct copies of the Japanese CD, without even going to the effort of doing their own sequencing, mastering, or anything. And Definitive, not Stateside, must have their info in the Web database. Pretty weird."

And sleazy.

[Daniel A]

This may not be as bad as it appears. The CDDB, which most media players and ripping software use, ID:s the disc solely on basis of the TOC (number, length and order of tracks). Therefore the players can't separate two releases containing the same track timings.

Of course, Definitive may have copied the previous release anyway.

[Head Man]

Of course, Definitive may have copied the previous release anyway.

... and almost certainly has!

[king ubu]

Of course, Definitive may have copied the previous release anyway.

... and almost certainly has!

They might have added some MP3 compression in the lineage though ...

[Big Beat Steve]

By and large, the problem wouldn't be one if the original reissues (particularly the Japanese ones, in this case Stateside) didn't make a habit of making international sales such a hassle and going OOP before you can say "pow".

Use (i.e. keep marketing) it or lose it ...

That's what it boils down to in the Public Domain sector. Quite simply ...

Edited March 18, 2014 by Big Beat Steve

[David Ayers]

May be that the Japanese releases are licensed only for release in Japan. The recent spate of Warner euro-japanese releases may be an indication that could change more broadly. Maybe.

Sorry, a bit OT.

[AllenLowe]

I'm with Steve on this - having grown up in a time when certain older music was desparately scarce - if the majors did what they should do and put things out, in consistently good sound and with notes and availablility, this would not happen - and if their excuse is that it is not affordable, then they should not complain when other companies do it.

I do realize, as I read this, that there are about 100 holes in my argument.

Edited March 18, 2014 by AllenLowe

[Head Man]

I'm with Steve on this - having grown up in a time when certain older music was desparately scarce - if the majors did what they should do and put things out, in consistently good sound and with notes and availablility, this would not happen - and if their excuse is that it is not affordable, then they should not complain when other companies do it.

I do realize, as I read this, that there are about 100 holes in my argument.

Well ......... ninety-nine anyway.

[Chuck Nessa]

I'm with Steve on this - having grown up in a time when certain older music was desparately scarce - if the majors did what they should do and put things out, in consistently good sound and with notes and availablility, this would not happen - and if their excuse is that it is not affordable, then they should not complain when other companies do it.

I do realize, as I read this, that there are about 100 holes in my argument.

Beyond the "rights" issue, one huge problem is someone with almost no "skin in the game" is competing with you for the listener's dollar. Comfort, aka nostalgia is much easier to sell and with the profit advantage, you lose big time.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Chuck Nessa

[AllenLowe]

agreed; my only other feeble defense is that I have a feeling that most people who patronize bootleg material have also spent enormous amounts on legitimate releases; personally I feel like I have single-handedly supported the American jazz and roots musician (or, really, the recording industry, which is not the same thing except in rare cases like Chuck's) for about 40 years.

Edited March 19, 2014 by AllenLowe

[David Ayers]

Not bootlegs, which are unauthorised releases of otherwise unavailable live recordings. And these are legitimate releases, with questions (for some) over ethics regarding sources. But...they are legal and not in any sense boots.

Sorry to keep hammering over points of vocabulary.

Oh and anyway boots are great - who'd be without them?

[king ubu]

But it would be nice if these legitimate thieves were in love with the music a bit more and trying a bit harder to deliver quality stuff, instead of just flunking and pretending in order to get our hard earned money ... my main beef with Definitive is really that they're the worst (at least this side of the pathetic "8 Classic Albums" sets). But as one of our good friends here often says: you get what you pay for

[David Ayers]

But it would be nice if these legitimate thieves were in love with the music a bit more and trying a bit harder to deliver quality stuff, instead of just flunking and pretending in order to get our hard earned money ... my main beef with Definitive is really that they're the worst (at least this side of the pathetic "8 Classic Albums" sets). But as one of our good friends here often says: you get what you pay for

Well I guess if they copied the Stateside set the quality is pretty reasonable .

Like you I mainly avoid this stuff, partly on quality grounds, partly on aroma, and I haven't ever put my toe in the water with the '8 albums for the price of a (Swiss) beer' crew...

Edited March 19, 2014 by David Ayers

[JSngry]

But it would be nice if these legitimate thieves were in love with the music a bit more and trying a bit harder to deliver quality stuff, instead of just flunking and pretending in order to get our hard earned money ... my main beef with Definitive is really that they're the worst (at least this side of the pathetic "8 Classic Albums" sets). But as one of our good friends here often says: you get what you pay for

If you think about what it is you pay and what it is you actually get, you (usually) really don't get what you pay for!

[David Ayers]

But it would be nice if these legitimate thieves were in love with the music a bit more and trying a bit harder to deliver quality stuff, instead of just flunking and pretending in order to get our hard earned money ... my main beef with Definitive is really that they're the worst (at least this side of the pathetic "8 Classic Albums" sets). But as one of our good friends here often says: you get what you pay for

If you think about what it is you pay and what it is you actually get, you (usually) really don't get what you pay for!

Lot of truth in that. I paid £5 for the entire Lord of the Rings Trilogy on 3 DVDs. That begins to be value for money. If you can be bothered to watch it. Music is steadfastly over-priced. Only way that our small niche can be serviced with the massive over-production which it seems to require.

Um, or maybe that's not what you meant...

[king ubu]

Well I guess if they copied the Stateside set the quality is pretty reasonable .

I don't think they leave it at that ... they "improve" by running filters and stuff ... and in the worst case, they use MP3 sources or damaged files (I think the Gigi Gryce 8 albums set has some of those? it was discussed here, a while ago).

[AllenLowe]

well I would ask - are they paying the publishing? If not, then these are bootlegs.

[Big Beat Steve]

Do I get what I pay for (in the sense of REAL and GOOD value for money) if I shell out for a Japanese reissue at FULL price if this Jap. reissue contains only the equivalent of ONE measly 10-inch record?

I get what I am willing to pay to get my hands on a specific item I want by all means and so I for once am willing to be shortchanged.

But would I moan and complain if the same contents (plus additional and fitting material to make up for maybe at least 60 or 70 minutes playing time) hit the market from a label like Fresh Sound, Blue Moon, Lonehill, Proper (who are exactly in the same P.D. boat, BTW) or even Definitive? Nah! Particularly since they are likely to keep the stuff in print far longer than those Asians do.

BTW, who knows for sure that Japanese reissuers always pay all those ARTIST royalties in full and in manner that the artists and/or their estates get them straight on?

Speaking of which, this royalty business (when paid through the "official" channels) is a big-time sham in my book anyway as far as total niche music releases or reissues are concerned. Those who pay to the "mechanical royalty" processing companies (like GEMA in the case of Germany) are not likely one bit to get back the money they OUGHT to get IMO. Case in point: A friend of mine who as a part-time project of his occasionally issues 45s (EPs) in one-time runs of 500 copies (not more) with rockabilly bands from that "niche" underground club circuit told me he had to pay something like 241 euros for this run of 500 in GEMA royalty payments for one particular item by a band from the UK (with all the songs on the EP written by the band, BTW). And guess what? The other day the leader of that band told him in passing that he "recently" (i.e some 12 months after the release of that particular 45) received the royalty statement from GEMA: A whopping 8 GBP!! Now where DID the royalties go that were paid for this particular 45? Greasing the palms of the pop music bigwigs? Now who's kidding whom?

And I know of other cases with similar record release projects.

So don't give me that royalty "argument", particularly if Public Domain music is concerned.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Well hey - ask me to do a needledrop or an MP3/WAV rip/burn for you, let me provide you some generic "artwork" and a basic disc-holder, and then let me charge you more than, say, 3-5 bucks for that, let me charge you 10-15 dollars PLUS S&H for that. Then let's see if you tell me that you're getting what you paid for.

I would certainly hope that you would tell me to go fuck myself, my jiveass conman self and my triflin' lameass ripoff "product"! Yes, I would certainly hope that!!!

[Big Beat Steve]

Have I seen you write and compile liner notes and discog details like they do at Blue Moon, for example, yet?

As for generic artwork, I assume you are also thinking of the majors with their often utterly lame generic, nondescript artworks too?

If you are so upset about "generic artwork", you must have a bad, bad, BAAAAD time buying records of reissues throughout the 70s, right? Didn't it strike you back then that somebody out there (among the MAJORS) was ripping you off badly with music that had been "written off" production cost-wise long ago?

As MP3/WAV, I'm not playing and you're right, i'd tell you what you'd expect to hear. But the way things verys often appear here many of those who frown about the P.D. labels often grudgingly have to admit that many of them aren't THAT much worse soundwise compared to other releases/reissues that might be considered more "legit".

And - yeah, any definite word about royalties from Japan? What's the deal, then?

.

[JSngry]

Oh, I'm not upset about anything. I got too much money saved from not buying this particular kind of bullshit to be upset!

Upset would be wanting something nice and not having the money to buy it cause I spent it all on Ambluvianitive or whatever them labels is.

[Big Beat Steve]

As long as you have the bucks to shell them out in one go during those 3 to 4 weeks that those oh so coveted Japanese reissues remain in print ...

[JSngry]

I try to distinguish between what I think I want, what I really want, and what I actually need to become a better, smarter person (or at least musician/player/thinker/placeholder) and budget accordingly.

Some days are better than others!

[David Ayers]

well I would ask - are they paying the publishing? If not, then these are bootlegs.

I guess you can use the word how you like but...that isn't what it means to most people. I forgive you though

[David Ayers]

For the rest, if people don't like these products they won't buy them. Paying for music is entirely optional these days. These labels are offering a service, that's all. In fact quite a good service in some ways. Masses of material is kept available, there is really good distribution. And that is actually what your music-dollar is paying for, not the musicians or the imaginary fat-cats.

I sometimes think that the general fuss we make about royalties is a displacement of our own unease about how much of what we pay for music (over 90%) just goes to pay for the service. The retailer makes far more per unit than the musicians or composers. Some people think shop prices are too high. Guess what, they are not high enough, and stores close. Distribution the same, it costs money, and the reason that these PD releases cost as much as official ones is that you are paying for this chain, there's no way round it. You aren't paying for music, so much, you are paying for someone to get it to you.

Mind you, a friend of mine is the estate of a name musician. Fresh Sounds recently did one of his. I haven't yet asked her about that, if she even knows about it let alone if they contacted her. She is periodically contacted regarding permissions so I am quite curious if FS went this route. If she's cross about it I might not defend them....