AAJ Bans Any Mention Of Organissimo

[Matthew]

One of the obvious concerns that Mike has at AAJ is the steep decline in particapation and quality in the last couple of months -- a fact he has alluded to more than a couple of times. He might feel, justly perhaps, that Organissimo and The Jazz Corner have become the jazz boards of choice right now, but, I don't see how this new policy can stop the tide, the plan fact, except of a couple of posters at AAJ, the quality has gone downhill lately. This policy will only increase the decline, not stop it.

[Chuck Nessa]

We're behind you all the way, Dan!

I disagree. I think Dan posted in a "fit of anger" and that was fair, but I would hope he would go back and delete the messages.

[Ed S]

I'm with Chuck in my disagreement with Dan's posts. I know there are some hard feelings between the two of them (Ricci and Dan) based on some posts made in some sort of interview suggestion thread.

Actually Dan, if all Ricci called you was a twerp after your obscenity laden insulting response to him in the interview thread then I'd just leave it at that. I hope you reconsider and delete those threads as they really serve no purpose other than to throw gasoline on the fire.

Edited February 16, 2004 by Ed Swinnich

[connoisseur series500]

We're behind you all the way, Dan! 

I disagree. I think Dan posted in a "fit of anger" and that was fair, but I would hope he would go back and delete the messages.

Haven't yet read Dan's posts at AAJ. Still catching up on stuff here. Will get over there shortly, but I do approve in principle with Dan sticking up for himself.

Will be over there shortly to read the posts...

[connoisseur series500]

Actually Dan, if all Ricci called you was a twerp after your obsccenity laden insulting response to him in the interview thread then I'd just leave it at that. I hope you reconsider and delete those threads as they really serve no purpose other than to throw gasoline on the fire.

Hmm, seems as if I'm not cognizant of the full story...

This is more complicated that it initially appears.

Sorry, guys, for posting my thoughts before I even read the threads. I have to bow out of the discussion as I really don't know what's going on.

In the meantime, I'm heading over to AAJ to read Dan's comments.

[EKE BBB]

One of the obvious concerns that Mike has at AAJ is the steep decline in particapation and quality in the last couple of months -- a fact he has alluded to more than a couple of times. He might feel, justly perhaps, that Organissimo and The Jazz Corner have become the jazz boards of choice right now, but, I don't see how this new policy can stop the tide, the plan fact, except of a couple of posters at AAJ, the quality has gone downhill lately. This policy will only increase the decline, not stop it.

Couldn´t agree more, Matthew!

I can´t find many threads of interest there lately. I keep on posting there basically for the All Birthdays Thread (which is really funny) and for some members´ posts (peter rh, clifton and a few more).

BTW, I´d like to know what clifton (who is also an administrator at AAJ and registered here at organissimo and posted during a couple of weeks) thinks about this matter. He´s a thoughtful guy and I really appreciate his input. Maybe I´ll send him a PM.

All I can say is that THIS IS MY HOME NOW... as AAJ used to be...

[connoisseur series500]

Actually Dan, if all Ricci called you was a twerp after your obsccenity laden insulting response to him in the interview thread then I'd just leave it at that.  I hope you reconsider and delete those threads as they really serve no purpose other than to throw gasoline on the fire.

Hmm, seems as if I'm not cognizant of the full story...

This is more complicated that it initially appears.

Sorry, guys, for posting my thoughts before I even read the threads. I have to bow out of the discussion as I really don't know what's going on.

In the meantime, I'm heading over to AAJ to read Dan's comments.

Okay, I'm still not cognizant of the full story, but I read the link that Dan posted and his terse response.

As I've mentioned before, we all have our styles. I try to contain my tendency to use foul language when posting (not always successfully!) and I certainly try to curb my emotions.

Well, Dan is Dan.

I'd be pissed if I were he and happened to have read Mike Ricci's "twerp comment." In the same breath he wonders where Heaney has been. In other words, Dan is a twerp, but he misses Hardbop. (Nothing negative on Heaney intended here!)

I'd be insulted.

I support Dan's comments.

Unless there's something else I'm unaware of....

BTW, since I'm an infrequent poster at AAJ, my comments don't mean diddly squat! Mine is only a disinterested opinion, as far as AAJ is concerned. I do consider Dan a friend, and my inclination is to support a friend after he is insulted.

Edited February 16, 2004 by connoisseur series500

[Chuck Nessa]

I support Dan's comments.

Unless there's something else I'm unaware of....

BTW, since I'm an infrequent poster at AAJ, my comments don't mean diddly squat! Mine is only a disinterested opinion, as far as AAJ is concerned. I do consider Dan a friend, and my inclination is to support a friend after he is insulted.

The point is Dan's comments in context reflect on the whole board and we do not need this crap - deserved or not.

Dan may be "one of our guys", but we do not need the negative feedback.

He may be MY "fucking right wing idiot" and "musically myopic", but he's one of us and his rants reflect badly on Jim's board.

[Ed S]

Unless there's something else I'm unaware of....

This might cause more problems than its worth, but there is more......

A while back, Dan posted a thread at AAJ asking for suggestions for questions for an interview he was doing. I think Ricci mentioned that he'd ask a few people to post some ideas. A couple of those people did.

After a few days to a week passed, Ricci posted something questioning why Dan did not come back and do any follow up or thank the posters or something like that. After some back and forth, I think, Dan posted what can best be described as "the mother of all F-YOU posts" using what seemed to me to be an endless litany of insults and obscenities ending with an I'll never post at your site again pronouncement. I thought it was more than a bit over the top but as you said Dan is Dan. That thread has since been deleted, fortunately or unfortunately.

Sometime afterwards, Ricci made his twerp comment and the rest is history.

I'm pretty sure this is a reasonable synopsis, or at least I hope it is.

If it were me, I'd let it drop and delete the posts. This who's gonna get the last word in thing really serves no purpose except to exacerbate this latest sore point between the two boards. But it's not me, it's Dan so ultimately the decision is his. Of course Ricci will delete them when he sees them anyway/

Edited February 16, 2004 by Ed Swinnich

[Muskrat Ramble]

I just read about this tempest in a teapot. For clarification, Mike wrote in one of the relevant posts

Addendum | 9-Feb-2004 | We reserve the right to remove links or references made to other jazz-related bulletin boards.

That strikes me as a questionable policy, to say the least, but in fairness it doesn't equal

The AAJ Board now BANS any mention of Organissimo or any other Jazz Site in its forums.

[Guest Chaney]

[Ed S]

I just read about this tempest in a teapot. For clarification, Mike wrote in one of the relevant posts

Addendum | 9-Feb-2004 | We reserve the right to remove links or references made to other jazz-related bulletin boards.

That strikes me as a questionable policy, to say the least, but in fairness it doesn't equal

The AAJ Board now BANS any mention of Organissimo or any other Jazz Site in its forums.

Technically, you are correct that the phrasing is not the same.

However, in essence and in practicality, Ricci has banned references to other boards. He closed today's thread, edited and/or deleted posts therein.

How is a poster to know if/when his reference to another board will be subjected to editing or deletion by Ricci? The result is a chilling effect that has posters avoiding references to other boards be they notices about technical problems or "I saw a post at Organissimo or JC" type posts.

Personally, I don't like to having my thoughts and posts manipulated in that way.

[shawn·m]

A while back, Dan posted a thread at AAJ asking for...

Ed, I don’t doubt that you’re disturbed by today’s events. It’s raised a few questions in my mind as well. But digging up the past cuts both ways, even if it’s in an effort to clarify... I’d rather leave the past just there; in the past. Seems to me that B3-er has a mighty reasonable attitude toward this whole mess.

P.S. Mr. Sngry is there some deeper machinations that I’m not aware of? It seems that xricci and his partner are funding AAJ out of their own pocket. xricci is trying to sign sponsors to help fund the expansion of AAJ’s features, but selling posters and what not seems innocuous at best. Am I missing something?

[Ed S]

A while back, Dan posted a thread at AAJ asking for...

Ed, I don’t doubt that you’re disturbed by today’s events. It’s raised a few questions in my mind as well. But digging up the past cuts both ways, even if it’s in an effort to clarify... I’d rather leave the past just there; in the past. Seems to me that B3-er has a mighty reasonable attitude toward this whole mess.

P.S. Mr. Sngry is there some deeper machinations that I’m not aware of? It seems that xricci and his partner are funding AAJ out of their own pocket. xricci is trying to sign sponsors to help fund the expansion of AAJ’s features, but selling posters and what not seems innocuous at best. Am I missing something?

I know what you mean shawn. I'd rather leave the past alone as well. But the "AAJ is run by an Asshole" threads dredge it up fully out of context. If that "twerp" comment of Ricci was going to be taken up as some sort of battle cry by some, then I believe it is appropriate to also go into the past to supply some context to be placed around it. To not dredge up the past in this case would leave it to it appear as if Ricci was taking shots at Organissimo boardmembers for no good reason.

I'm not sticking up for Ricci here but as I said before, bad will between boards does no one good. Actually, even though Dan was pretty brutal with Ricci in the since deleted thread, as Board operator and chief moderator, it was inappropriate for him to call anyone a twerp. But he's a human being with emotions and reacted. Is he a piece of shit? I don't think so.

[Jazzmoose]

Wish I hadn't brought the "twerp" thing up now, of course, but it's too late...

[shawn·m]

Yeah, a perceived battle cry is hard to ignore. Look what happened during musicboy’s visit (hell, I even got a piece of that myself). But here’s the thing, ED; the past is relevant –just ask anyone residing in the Middle East. It takes a long time to get over crap that happened in the past. While I’m not in a position to defend xricci’s remark, only one individual can effectively address it. How that individual chooses to respond is also a matter of choice.

Yes, Organissimo and AAJ compliment each other beautifully, warts ‘n’ all, but history/context, despite intensions, does have a way of bringing others into the fray when the chief combatants have the ability to solve problems between themselves. Outsiders (separating the “twerp” comment from AAJ’s link policy for the moment) tend to do nothing as much as complicate the dispute. Lord knows there’s nothing as difficult as settling a feud between two families.

Athough I hear the Hatfields and McCoys did set aside their differences recently.

By the way, are you familiar with Ellery Eskelin? Just discovered his hatOLOY stuff and I’ve gone nuts for his stuff. Of course, he's no Dex and I’m afraid of what Sngry will say…

[Jim Dye]

Ellery posts quite often over at Jazz Corner. Oops. Just mentioned another board.

[Use3D]

UseMSK3 (12:39:13 AM): he's just mad cause we're smoking his board

[brownie]

UseMSK3 (12:39:13 AM): he's just mad cause we're smoking his board

Had that feeling when I went to have a look at AAJ a few days ago. Noticed some posters had a couple of questions which were answered by other posters who provided direct links to Organissimo for the right answers to the questions.

This must have hit a raw nerve...

[JSngry]

P.S. Mr. Sngry is there some deeper machinations that I’m not aware of? It seems that xricci and his partner are funding AAJ out of their own pocket. xricci is trying to sign sponsors to help fund the expansion of AAJ’s features, but selling posters and what not seems innocuous at best. Am I missing something?

No deeper machinations. Like I said, it's a business. The site would like to someday turn a profit. and I hope they do.

Still, the fact remains that the site's potential for profitability depends on content. To my knowledge, AAJ does not offer compensation for content (other than copies of CDs reviewed), which is totaly understandable if there is no money available. Mr. Ricci offered to post Dan's interview w/Weinstock if Dan couldn't get it published elsewhere. I think an interview of this nature is pretty significant if it was properly conducted (and I have no reason to think that it wasn't), and would be quite a feather in any jazz site's cap. If I had it in my possession, I don't think I'd just give it away.

Now, when does "I'd like to pay you but I can't" turn into something a little (or lot) less benign? Of course, willful particiapation in a bulletin board is nothing that any sane individual should expect to be compensated for, but the fact remains - a hopping board means more traffic, more traffic makes for better stats, and better stats make for a more appealing "product" to sell to potential advertisers. When does an honest solicitation of content become looking for a free ride? I don't know. I am in NO way accusing Mr. Ricci of having reached that stage, but I do know that here at Organissimo, I don't ever worry about it becoming an issue in the first place, and that's why this is my board of choice. It's the UHF of jazz boards, but hey - it's OUR UHF!

[JSngry]

By the way, are you familiar with Ellery Eskelin? Just discovered his hatOLOY stuff and I’ve gone nuts for his stuff. Of course, he's no Dex and I’m afraid of what Sngry will say…

"afraid of what Sngry will say"? Surely you jest!

Ellery Eskelin is an outstanding player!

[EKE BBB]

BTW: Jazzcorner keeps this "no mention of other jazz boards" policy from long ago.

When I first post there, months ago, in a thread called something like "First, stop here and say hello", I innocently mentioned AAJ and organissimo with something like "...I post frequently at AAJ and organissimo and I hope I will have time to post here...".

Well, without any warning, my post was completely touched up, deleting the sentence quoted above.

I remember I got very angry with that, replying again in that thread... this reply was deleted as well. I received a PM from the administrator (which I didn´t notice till a couple of weeks past) explaining their policy.

I haven´t practically posted there since. Hope this won´t happen with AAJ.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

He also deleted Tod's reply. No major loss,

Why do you say that? Was he heaping praise on that damn Four Freshmen Mosaic again? B)

[JSngry]

Let me, hopefully, clear up any misunderstanding before it occurs.

I am in no way implying that Mr. Ricci (or Ms. Gilbert) are trying to rip people off, either now or in the future. All I'm saying is allowing the discussion of problems at other boards, or information to be found on other boards, to be discussed on their own boards seems to me to be the type of "humanitarian aid" that creates goodwill throughout the community, whereas the prohibition of same seems to be exercising a sort of "exclusivity clause" that is usually accompanied by some sort of compensation. One does not usually take kindly to one's ideas being viewed in a strictly proprietary manner by someone who has not in some manner paid for the privilige, and when the edict is issued that information about or on other boards is not welcome, that, to me, is exerting a form of "ownership" beyond relatively simple matters such as keeping a board clear of "offensive" or "inappropriate" content.

Again, there is no suggestion of impropriety or malevolence in this statement. I just think that there are perhaps some expectations of "exclusivity" that are not necessarily based in the realities of jazz cyberspace.

[mikeweil]

What do you run a jazz forum for? In the first place, for the love of the music, and if there's only a hint of a want to make a profit inclined, it will turn back on you someday. It's just as ridiculous as prohibiting links to other sites. (Of course rules to prevent links to porn sites etc. make sense.) We're still far from a free and tolerant world, if we don't turn the virtual world into one, who will?