Is streaming technology saving the music industry?

[BillF]

When I showed Greg Abate this week that I could access his latest album - which he was selling on CD at the gig - on my phone via Spotify, he surprised me by saying, "That's good". When I pointed out that his CD sales would take a hit, he said "I don't care. I'm doing alright". My guess is he likes the extra publicity that Spotify availability brings and that gigs - his website says he averages 250 shows a year - are his main source of income.

[Scott Dolan]

6. 24-bit and more, with lossless, is better than any lossy format.

In theory, yes. In application and real world listening tests? No.

5. Irrelevant - I won't ever use iTunes or Apple products.

It is absolutely relevant because it completely disproves your claim that "MP3's" don't have cover art or liner notes. Which is only true if one is dumb enough to buy them from a vendor who doesn't offer those things. Both Emusic and iTunes certainly do. Though Emusic offers a lot less albums with liner notes than iTunes, each and every one of them absolutely comes with the cover art.

And seriously, Dropbox? So now I need another account and password, and another site I need to deal with. No thanks, CD's by comparison is nice flexible, and simple.

Sorry, that's not even a legitimate argument. I guess all the CDs you trade are done by people coming to your house? If not, it means you leaving your house to go some place else. That's much easier than doing it from your computer?

The music you buy from iTunes is yours until they don't sell music anymore, change their terms and conditions, or maybe even forever. Personally I don't want to be reliant on a software vendor.

Again, a completely irrelevant point. I only need to worry about them being around if I lose my collection due to disaster! Otherwise, it's already on my computer, with a redundant copy on an external HD.

So even with your insurance, your back up plan is to re-order thousands of CDs. Whereas mine is to simply re-download, which takes about 1 min per album. That means in the 48 hours it will take for CDs to start arriving at your door, I could have already retrieved, and been listening to, close to 3,000 titles.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[erwbol]

Is anyone else getting tired of this endless sniping back and forth going on in this thread? Some of these comments are getting mighty personal.

First time in ages I peeked in here and I'm tired already. Time for the participants to move on and listen to some music?

Edited November 15, 2014 by erwbol

[.:.impossible]

for fuck sake. not everything has to be a fucking debate. some people are entirely too predictable. we all know how this goes.

[Scott Dolan]

Exactly! We should all just just ignore each other's points and simply talk past each other. That would make for such an improvement in communication and interaction!

[.:.impossible]

Yes. That's the only other option, as evidenced by the balance of our membership. We are all just ignoring each other.

[Scott Dolan]

Did you actually have anything that you wanted to add to the conversation? Or did you just pop in to whine that some folks weren't playing by the rules as you see them?

[Ligeti]

I've already said I won't ever use Apple products). T

And your reason is.....?

A debate about Apple and their skinning 30% off every music sale, and other things, would certainly derail the thread - and my issues are not entirely related to music. So I don't think such a debate would be fruitful. People who use Apple and like them will be pro - people like me anti. I can ssure you though, I will never buy an Apple product or service, so it's not an option for me. I hope you understand - I'm not avoiding the issue, it's just that I can predict the path any debate would take.

[Ligeti]

6. 24-bit and more, with lossless, is better than any lossy format.

In theory, yes. In application and real world listening tests? No.

5. Irrelevant - I won't ever use iTunes or Apple products.

It is absolutely relevant because it completely disproves your claim that "MP3's" don't have cover art or liner notes. Which is only true if one is dumb enough to buy them from a vendor who doesn't offer those things. Both Emusic and iTunes certainly do. Though Emusic offers a lot less albums with liner notes than iTunes, each and every one of them absolutely comes with the cover art.

And seriously, Dropbox? So now I need another account and password, and another site I need to deal with. No thanks, CD's by comparison is nice flexible, and simple.

Sorry, that's not even a legitimate argument. I guess all the CDs you trade are done by people coming to your house? If not, it means you leaving your house to go some place else. That's much easier than doing it from your computer?

The music you buy from iTunes is yours until they don't sell music anymore, change their terms and conditions, or maybe even forever. Personally I don't want to be reliant on a software vendor.

Again, a completely irrelevant point. I only need to worry about them being around if I lose my collection due to disaster! Otherwise, it's already on my computer, with a redundant copy on an external HD.

So even with your insurance, your back up plan is to re-order thousands of CDs. Whereas mine is to simply re-download, which takes about 1 min per album. That means in the 48 hours it will take for CDs to start arriving at your door, I could have already retrieved, and been listening to, close to 3,000 titles.

I see not reason to buy lossy formats. None at all. Perfectly good non-lossy formats are available, why bother with MP3? Who knows what codecs and systems will become available in the future? I see no downside to lossless formats, I see them on MP3's. As such, I won't pay for MP3's. You on the other hand are perfectly entitled to do so, so it's all good.

No - it's irrelevant. I don't care if Apple arrange for the band to play live in my living room. I don't want anything to do wth Apple. Therefore, what they do is nothing to do with it. I've made myself clear about my stance - you can choose to ignore it if you want (and hell, have you ever read anything you didn't want to disagree with?!?!?!) but you're simply wasting your time - Apple are not an option. Period. I can get liner notes and cover art from Amazon and other sites if I want. I'd much rather do that. Or - I can buy physical product which prefer. But a JPG isn't a good substitution for the real thing, imo.

And whether you consider a remark "not even a legitimate argument" is also irrelevant. You sir are a bully who looks at all possible ways to disagree. Your debating style is one of a overly aggressive frustrated man. Rather than open up discussions or give the benefit of the doubt, you seek to dictate your own view and put those of others down. It makes you come across like a child having a tantrum. So please, you'll have to get used to my dismissing your view without much thought from now on, you've exhausted any good will I would normally offer through a desire of being civil - you're simply no longer worthy of consideration. (Now - cue a defensive response where you lash out some more and make excuses, insiting only your view is relevant and everything I wrote is wrong and irrelvevant.........)

It's funny you would write "irrelevant post" a couple times. Nothing you're written is relevant -I made it clear Apple is not an option, and you keep going on about them as though they are. Huh? You don't get to dictate what is, and what is not, relevant to me or others.

On the other hand, if nothing else, your responses have shown me that you don't know what you're talking about and your opinion isn't worth the digital bits to render them on my screen. You and I have virtually nothing in common, even as music lovers, a fact for which I am extremely grateful. You have a nice day now, you hear?

ps: If you want an illustration at how ridiculous and petty you are, and how you strive to dictate to others no matter what - read your response regarding insurance. Who the hell introduces a house fire into a discussion on collecting music in order to support their decision to by lossy MP3 files? Only a tool.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Ligeti

[Ligeti]

for fuck sake. not everything has to be a fucking debate. some people are entirely too predictable. we all know how this goes.

If I have caused you some offense in my comments here, I apologize unreservedly. Sincerely.

As an excuse, I only just started visiting the site - and I had no idea what a certain individual was like. In future I will know that any comment he makes isn't worth reading, and certainly has no value in a debate. Initially I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. That's fine, but sometimes you come across bullies and over-bearing fools - and the benefit of the doubt isn't the right approach.

Sorry again.

[mjzee]

Boys, boys...that's why we have an "ignore" option as part of the board software. Use it judiciously.

[Ligeti]

Boys, boys...that's why we have an "ignore" option as part of the board software. Use it judiciously.

You're right. In my defense let me say that if I'm new to a board - and in effect I am here - having to use the IGNORE feature after a couple days of posting is more an indication that I'd leave the board rather than use Ignore. Using ignore after only two days is a bad sign.

But I'm now more informed, I assure you.

[JSngry]

In my defense let me say that if I'm new to a board - and in effect I am here - having to use the IGNORE feature after a couple days of posting is more an indication that I'd leave the board rather than use Ignore. Using ignore after only two days is a bad sign.

Please, stop by here and get a taste of all the good vibes this board has to offer!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I had a Spotify subscription and got rid of it. In my opinion, Spotify is leveraging the hard work and sacrifice of thousands of artists to make very few people very rich. To me, it seems like its monetizing piracy -- $0.006 per play is abysmal. I feel it is unethical. Unfortunately, more artists do not vigorously defend their intellectual property rights. I do not understand why record labels and artists allow strangers to post entire newly released albums on You Tube.

If Spotify's head honcho Mr. Ek is so interested in compensating artists, he and his investors should distribute the IPO money that he is positioning himself and his investors for to the artists. He should also take as salary the median income of the artists whose music is offered on his service.

I'm not at all sure that $0.006 IS an abysmal rate of pay per play. It's not .6 of a cent per album but per play - so a ten track album, which gets played through would earn 6 cents. If I'd have had to pay someone 6 cents every time I'd played Grant Green's 'Born to be blue' - oh it's a nine cut album, so that's 5.4 cents, it would have cost me getting on for twenty dollars by now. Of course, albums I don't listen to wouldn't have cost nearly as much as the hard copy versions in Spotify terms but, although I have a few of those, I keep them for discographical reasons. And, also of course, I haven't played my recent acquisitions hundreds of times - yet, and may never do so, as we inevitably die before we've got full value out of lots of the things we buy Oh well.

What artists probably need to think about is making music that customers will want to come back to decade after decade. If they can do that, these tiny payments can add up to a good income.

MG

PS - like Ligeti, I don't watch TV or even know how to USE a mobile anything, so I have plenty of time for music.

Decisions, decisions. Now, what shall I listen to next - Edmundo Ros 'Dance again'

MG

[JSngry]

What artists probably need to think about is making music that customers will want to come back to decade after decade. If they can do that, these tiny payments can add up to a good income.

I have seen the future of streaming music and it is patriotic drinking songs about mothers!

Nashville uber alles!

[medjuck]

I've already said I won't ever use Apple products). T

And your reason is.....?

A debate about Apple and their skinning 30% off every music sale, and other things, would certainly derail the thread - and my issues are not entirely related to music. So I don't think such a debate would be fruitful. People who use Apple and like them will be pro - people like me anti. I can ssure you though, I will never buy an Apple product or service, so it's not an option for me. I hope you understand - I'm not avoiding the issue, it's just that I can predict the path any debate would take.

It wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm seriously curious about your reasons. Apple's 30% is (I think) less than most brick and mortar stores take.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I've already said I won't ever use Apple products). T

And your reason is.....?

A debate about Apple and their skinning 30% off every music sale, and other things, would certainly derail the thread - and my issues are not entirely related to music. So I don't think such a debate would be fruitful. People who use Apple and like them will be pro - people like me anti. I can ssure you though, I will never buy an Apple product or service, so it's not an option for me. I hope you understand - I'm not avoiding the issue, it's just that I can predict the path any debate would take.

It wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm seriously curious about your reasons. Apple's 30% is (I think) less than most brick and mortar stores take.

Well, it's gone up a bit since the sixties, which isn't wholly surprising. Back then the shop I worked in was making between 20 and 25 percent margins.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

My only gripe about Spotify is that I can't ever seen to find any of the African music that MG shares here. Probably because I have no idea what I'm looking for.

Well. a fair amount of my stuff I get on African K7s which aren't sold in the west (except in cities with a good-sized African population, like Paris, Brussels and, perhaps, Little Senegal in New York - the real reason I go to Paris every year and come home wit h40-50 albums). But anything you've seen me post an image for on the board SHOULD be gettable somehow, because I get the images from the web. Don't restrict yourself to Spotify - maybe it's somewhere else; Amazon are doing a lot of downloads of CK7 albums nowadays - course, you have to BUY those - and I have found stuff on iTunes and CD Baby that's not on Amazon. Do Google for a comprehensive search.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Of course - on the web images come and go - here's the post where I listed a lot of what I got in July -

MG

[Ligeti]

I've already said I won't ever use Apple products). T

And your reason is.....?

A debate about Apple and their skinning 30% off every music sale, and other things, would certainly derail the thread - and my issues are not entirely related to music. So I don't think such a debate would be fruitful. People who use Apple and like them will be pro - people like me anti. I can ssure you though, I will never buy an Apple product or service, so it's not an option for me. I hope you understand - I'm not avoiding the issue, it's just that I can predict the path any debate would take.

It wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm seriously curious about your reasons. Apple's 30% is (I think) less than most brick and mortar stores take.

Well, it's gone up a bit since the sixties, which isn't wholly surprising. Back then the shop I worked in was making between 20 and 25 percent margins.

MG

The world was a different place back then, a place where you essentially only shopped locally at brick and mortars. There are so few brick and mortars now - in fact, I am aware of only 3 within a 20 mile radius of where I am, and one of those is HMV which would rather sell movies and T Shirts. My dislike of Apple goes way beyond their 30% skimming. My choice not to have anything to do with them is one I'm more than happy with, there are other services that would suit me. But honestly, while I admit the future is digital (though not MP3, imo), I am in no rush. To date I have never paid for a digital file. I'll hold off for as long as it takes for a vendor to convince me they offer value-add of some sort. Higher resolutions are quite compelling, but not enough to tip me over the edge. As titles stop becoming available on CD the pendulum will swing. Fortunately, it's a long way off at the moment. Still, signs aren't good. I note Linn, for example, no longer make CD players, which is shame.

Also, I found an article in the Wall Street Journal stating that music sales at iTunes have dropped 13% since the start of the year. One factor is the pricing of streaming services, apparently.

[Scott Dolan]

It wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm seriously curious about your reasons. Apple's 30% is (I think) less than most brick and mortar stores take.

While I don't know what brick and mortars take is, I've have to still think a 30% skim is nowhere near being outrageous. Distributors have always taken a large chunk. And rightfully so, I suppose. Back in the day they were your lifeline.

[sonnyhill]

I'm not at all sure that $0.006 IS an abysmal rate of pay per play. It's not .6 of a cent per album but per play - so a ten track album, which gets played through would earn 6 cents. If I'd have had to pay someone 6 cents every time I'd played Grant Green's 'Born to be blue' - oh it's a nine cut album, so that's 5.4 cents, it would have cost me getting on for twenty dollars by now. Of course, albums I don't listen to wouldn't have cost nearly as much as the hard copy versions in Spotify terms but, although I have a few of those, I keep them for discographical reasons. And, also of course, I haven't played my recent acquisitions hundreds of times - yet, and may never do so, as we inevitably die before we've got full value out of lots of the things we buy Oh well.

What artists probably need to think about is making music that customers will want to come back to decade after decade. If they can do that, these tiny payments can add up to a good income.

MG

PS - like Ligeti, I don't watch TV or even know how to USE a mobile anything, so I have plenty of time for music.

Decisions, decisions. Now, what shall I listen to next - Edmundo Ros 'Dance again'

MG

At $.054 per album play you would have to had played Born to be Blue about 370 times to generate $20.00 of revenue. You must really like that album.

At $.06 per song, a ten track album would have to be played all the way through 100 times to make $6.00. There are very few, if any, albums in my collection that I have listened to 100 times.

Most jazz albums are considered successful if 1000 - 2000 copies are sold. For musicians who sell that few albums, the economics of Spotify do not make sense. Streaming does appear to be the future, but its proponents in my opinion are being disingenuous when they contend that streaming is great for the artists. Streaming is great for Spotify's principals and its investors. They will get extraordinarily weathly when there is an IPO and sell your listening habits and other information to make even more money.

The music business has alway been unfair to artists, but streaming as it is now configured in my opinion makes it more unfair.

Maybe the future for jazz and classical artists are Kickstarter campaigns where interested listeners pay for the music before it is even recorded. Jemeel Moondoc used Kickstarter to pay musicians for The Zookeeper's House and the Chiara String Quartet used it for their recording of the Brahm's String Quartets, Brahms by Heart. But then that makes it difficult for artists without name recognition to put out a first album. My concern is whether streaming will make the economics of recording an album too daunting.

[mjzee]

Maybe the future for jazz and classical artists are Kickstarter campaigns where interested listeners pay for the music before it is even recorded.

In effect, that's what we do when we go hear music in a club or concert hall.

[Ligeti]

A brick and mortar has all kinds of expenses that Apple simply don't have. The 30% they skim is another hold over from a past time (using brick and mortar costs as a model), and they do virtually nothing for it. They upload a small file, and they host it. The storage and maintenance costs are spread across their entire business - it's miniscule, an infinitesimal amount per track or album. It's nowhere near 30%, in fact per track it likely doesn't reach 1%. It's a con, and the artists suffer the brunt of it, along with consumers who are having to pay far too much for their music. MP3 costs at retail should be nothing close to physical product costs. And before I'm asked - yes, I have worked in large scale server farms offering web services (for example, we hosted and maintained large parts of Disney's web presence.) For many Apple have normalized a 30% skim, and Apple people being what they are, they'll defend it to the end of days. The web should have brought a new, fairer model to all. Instead they charge the same and offer far less in many ways.

Mind you, trying to tell Apple junkies anything negative about them is akin to trying to hold you breath the entire journey under water between Cuba and the US, so I simply don't bother to tread the same old ground over and over. There's nothing more gullible than someone with an iPhone and iTunes account, imo.

As such, this is my last post specific to Apple. They're con men, and I don't do business with them. There're certainly no better than Spotify in my eyes, and as far as the consumer goes, they're much worse. That's my opinion and view, and that's the end of it.

Maybe the future for jazz and classical artists are Kickstarter campaigns where interested listeners pay for the music before it is even recorded.

In effect, that's what we do when we go hear music in a club or concert hall.

A year or so ago there was a 10-CD box set released of early and unreleased music by Pauline Oliveros. I bought it on release. In fact, it sold out very quickly. Since it's her 80th year, a conference was held to celebrate her music, and the record label wanted to have copies on their table at the event. So, they did indeed have a Kickstarter campaign to raise funds to do it. They made their money, and made new sets. I think it's a fantastic idea, and would certainly consider giving to such campaigns if it were a title I dreamed of having.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Ligeti

[medjuck]

.

Mind you, trying to tell Apple junkies anything negative about them is akin to trying to hold you breath the entire journey under water between Cuba and the US, so I simply don't bother to tread the same old ground over and over. There's nothing more gullible than someone with an iPhone and iTunes account, imo.

Well you were honest enough to say "imo" instead of "imho".