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Important soul jazz recordings


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How do you define or describe "soul jazz"?

In that other thread, I said that Bob Porter described it as jazz intended as entertainment for black adults.

It's really hard to define, especially as people like Milt Jackson and Sonny Stitt made bebop and hard bop and soul jazz records. But if you think about entertainment, dancing (including very slow dancing, perhaps horizontally), partying and the music that goes with that, and the music that could and would be affected by that, and could be and was affected by (and led) changes in popular black music, hey, you're getting there.

MG

Thanks for the reply, and for the list. I only began exploring this genre in earnest over the past year. It really hits the spot when you're "in the mood".

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Agree with everything Jim said re the Crusaders and their recordings. "Crusaders 1" put the Crusaders in a broader national spotlight, at least in the U.S. "Put It Where You Want It" was big, and their sound really began to form (or shall I say reform).

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Playing jazz "soulfully" (e.g., Junior Mance on the Dexter album) does not automatically indicate a "Soul Jazz" labeling.

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I wouldn't include the Wes Montgomery Trio album on such a list. "Missile Blues" is about the only track that comes close to the category. I don't think of Wes as a "Soul Jazz" guy at all.

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I remain somewhat curious as to the origins of the term "Soul Jazz". I've raised the subject with MG before (in a BFT discussion, iirc), and he suggested that it started (the term, not the style) around the mid-50's. I believe Bob Porter may have written something to this effect. At any rate, I can't recall the first time I encountered the term (can anyone else here?). MG has certainly helped to keep it in my consciousness around here, but I can't recall where or when I may have seen it in liner notes, for example. I'm equally vague on when "Acid Jazz" became a widely used term, and who started it.

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Joni is Wheatfield Soul, to borrow a phrase from the pride of Winnipeg.

"Playing jazz "soulfully" (e.g., Junior Mance on the Dexter album) does not automatically indicate a "Soul Jazz" labeling."

And this is exactly what's wrong with genre centered analysis...

So being labeled as "Soul Jazz" doesn`t necessarily requiere the artist to play "soulfully"....just curious.....

btw if remembering correctly I didn`t state that Dexter Gordon Live in Montreux is "Soul Jazz" but tried to describe the impact of Junior Mance`s playing on other artists and/or recording sessions - this actually in order to answer a question by "The Magnificent Goldberg"....

Edited by soulpope
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I'll add 'Crusaders #1' to the list.

You know, it actually doesn't belong on the list. It has a much different feel than anything else on your list. It's not the late night, bluesy, greasy sound. At all. It's actually pretty sophisticated (relatively speaking) music in terms of chord changes, harmonies, and rhythms.

Edited by Jim R
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Joni is Wheatfield Soul, to borrow a phrase from the pride of Winnipeg.

"Playing jazz "soulfully" (e.g., Junior Mance on the Dexter album) does not automatically indicate a "Soul Jazz" labeling."

And this is exactly what's wrong with genre centered analysis...

So being labeled as "Soul Jazz" doesn`t necessarily requiere the artist to play "soulfully"....just curious.....

btw if remembering correctly I didn`t state that Dexter Gordon Live in Montreux is "Soul Jazz" but tried to describe the impact of Junior Mance`s playing on other artists and/or recording sessions - this actually in order to answer a question by "The Magnificent Goldberg"....

and I was commenting on what I quoted that JimR said - so, no, playing soulfully is apparently not necessary to be 'Soul Jazz', but that's not something I worry 'bout 'cause playing soulfully, i.e. with feeling whether it be expressed in a particularly churchy manner or not, is important to me; contributing to the codification of a marketable genre is not...

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Love this list and the discussion it spurred. MG, I am a little surprised by the complete absence of any early Horace Silver. I realize that ultimately HS was more "hard bop" than "soul jazz", but I get the sense that tunes like "The Preacher" and "Doodlin' " helped guide the evolution of the style.

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Agree with everything Jim said re the Crusaders and their recordings. "Crusaders 1" put the Crusaders in a broader national spotlight, at least in the U.S. "Put It Where You Want It" was big, and their sound really began to form (or shall I say reform).

=====

Playing jazz "soulfully" (e.g., Junior Mance on the Dexter album) does not automatically indicate a "Soul Jazz" labeling.

=====

Yeah, note Coleman Hawkins' album 'Soul'. And he also plays with soul. But...

I wouldn't include the Wes Montgomery Trio album on such a list. "Missile Blues" is about the only track that comes close to the category. I don't think of Wes as a "Soul Jazz" guy at all.

Well, Wes is difficult, I think, like Milt Jackson & Sonny Stitt. That first trio album with Mel Rhyne feels to me like a kind of Moodsville/Midnight slows session (and they often had an up number or two in there), played in an Atlantic City bar frequented by TTK.

Sure you don't think of 'A day in the life' as soul jazz? There were lots of Wes Montgomerys.

MG

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Joni is Wheatfield Soul, to borrow a phrase from the pride of Winnipeg.

"Playing jazz "soulfully" (e.g., Junior Mance on the Dexter album) does not automatically indicate a "Soul Jazz" labeling."

And this is exactly what's wrong with genre centered analysis...

You're not wrong there, but unless you do that it's hard to get a historical perspective. Also, if you say, "well, jazz is just this big mess of stuff that's been played for a hundred years or so and there's not much difference between King Oliver and Willis Jackson, so let's just think of them all together," then it's fairly undeniable that the focus is going to be on the relatively few geniuses among those guys and people are going to pay little attention to the people who may have played a key role for a time in keeping jazz a real career prospect for black youth. And if young black kids don't think of jazz as real music that they can use to pay rent with (and pull birds with), then the whole music dies/is dying/has died.

MG

I remain somewhat curious as to the origins of the term "Soul Jazz". I've raised the subject with MG before (in a BFT discussion, iirc), and he suggested that it started (the term, not the style) around the mid-50's. I believe Bob Porter may have written something to this effect. At any rate, I can't recall the first time I encountered the term (can anyone else here?). MG has certainly helped to keep it in my consciousness around here, but I can't recall where or when I may have seen it in liner notes, for example. I'm equally vague on when "Acid Jazz" became a widely used term, and who started it.

As far as Acid Jazz is concerned, that was a term started in England in the early eighties. I guess the magazine 'Blues & Soul' may have been where it originated, or maybe it was someone down on a dancefloor.

MG

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Love this list and the discussion it spurred. MG, I am a little surprised by the complete absence of any early Horace Silver. I realize that ultimately HS was more "hard bop" than "soul jazz", but I get the sense that tunes like "The Preacher" and "Doodlin' " helped guide the evolution of the style.

I thought about Horace a long time before deciding no. Not because he was more a hard bop player than a soul jazz man - because I think he's both at the same time - but because I'm really not sure that the line of influence leads through him.

In December 1953, Ray Charles recorded 'Don't cha know', which was a small hit in '54, and the first of Ray's hits in his 'new' style, quickly followed up by stuff like 'I got a woman', and the rest is history, as they say. When you listen to that first hit, you can hear the same horn voicing that Horace used for Messrs Mobley & Dorham, in '54. So, did Horace get it from Ray? Well, possibly, possibly not.

But soul jazz follows (and leads) black popular music. Most of the artists who've made big changes in black pop music were soul jazz musicians - honking saxes (Illinois), gospel concepts (Ray), funk (JB), Smooth soul (George Benson). Another way of looking at soul jazz is that it was the jazz thread of black pop music (or R&B) during a period when jazz was an important element of R&B. So, if you try to think on the sources of inspiration for the soul jazz musicians who followed on, the influence that was THERE and HUGE was Ray's, and Horace was by comparison a minor detail.

Of course, that first album of Horace & the Jazz Messengers was a classic soul jazz album, as were several others Horace made. And even when he wasn't making a classic soul jazz LP, he'd often still include a classic soul jazz tune in there. I don't think you can separate him from soul jazz, though I've never tried.

It may be that, technically, Horace had a big influence on other pianists/arrangers/bandleaders. I'm not qualified to say.

MG

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Joni is Wheatfield Soul, to borrow a phrase from the pride of Winnipeg.

"Playing jazz "soulfully" (e.g., Junior Mance on the Dexter album) does not automatically indicate a "Soul Jazz" labeling."

And this is exactly what's wrong with genre centered analysis...

So being labeled as "Soul Jazz" doesn`t necessarily requiere the artist to play "soulfully"....just curious.....

btw if remembering correctly I didn`t state that Dexter Gordon Live in Montreux is "Soul Jazz" but tried to describe the impact of Junior Mance`s playing on other artists and/or recording sessions - this actually in order to answer a question by "The Magnificent Goldberg"....

and I was commenting on what I quoted that JimR said - so, no, playing soulfully is apparently not necessary to be 'Soul Jazz', but that's not something I worry 'bout 'cause playing soulfully, i.e. with feeling whether it be expressed in a particularly churchy manner or not, is important to me; contributing to the codification of a marketable genre is not...

yes

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Joni is Wheatfield Soul, to borrow a phrase from the pride of Winnipeg.

"Playing jazz "soulfully" (e.g., Junior Mance on the Dexter album) does not automatically indicate a "Soul Jazz" labeling."

And this is exactly what's wrong with genre centered analysis...

So being labeled as "Soul Jazz" doesn`t necessarily requiere the artist to play "soulfully"....just curious.....

btw if remembering correctly I didn`t state that Dexter Gordon Live in Montreux is "Soul Jazz" but tried to describe the impact of Junior Mance`s playing on other artists and/or recording sessions - this actually in order to answer a question by "The Magnificent Goldberg"....

and I was commenting on what I quoted that JimR said - so, no, playing soulfully is apparently not necessary to be 'Soul Jazz', but that's not something I worry 'bout 'cause playing soulfully, i.e. with feeling whether it be expressed in a particularly churchy manner or not, is important to me; contributing to the codification of a marketable genre is not...

yes

I've got to agree with you about playing soulfully being the important thing and sub-genres of jazz less important. But there are reasons, having to do with the general health of jazz as a whole, why I think that an understand of soul jazz is worthwhile and helpful. See my other response to Danasgoodstuff up a bit.

MG

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Joni is Wheatfield Soul, to borrow a phrase from the pride of Winnipeg.

"Playing jazz "soulfully" (e.g., Junior Mance on the Dexter album) does not automatically indicate a "Soul Jazz" labeling."

And this is exactly what's wrong with genre centered analysis...

So being labeled as "Soul Jazz" doesn`t necessarily requiere the artist to play "soulfully"....just curious.....

btw if remembering correctly I didn`t state that Dexter Gordon Live in Montreux is "Soul Jazz" but tried to describe the impact of Junior Mance`s playing on other artists and/or recording sessions - this actually in order to answer a question by "The Magnificent Goldberg"....

and I was commenting on what I quoted that JimR said - so, no, playing soulfully is apparently not necessary to be 'Soul Jazz', but that's not something I worry 'bout 'cause playing soulfully, i.e. with feeling whether it be expressed in a particularly churchy manner or not, is important to me; contributing to the codification of a marketable genre is not...

yes

I've got to agree with you about playing soulfully being the important thing and sub-genres of jazz less important. But there are reasons, having to do with the general health of jazz as a whole, why I think that an understand of soul jazz is worthwhile and helpful. See my other response to Danasgoodstuff up a bit.

MG

didn`t intend neither to invalidate your interest/enthusiasm reg the topic nor question whether the categorisation of "Soul Jazz" is a making sense.....

off-topic :

as one of my other interests beneath jazz and classical music being soul music, i somehow felt reminded about the passionate followers of the genre "Northern Soul", who extended in the last couple of years (due to lack of new records issued/new "finds" of "old" records) this labeling even to R&B (very often soulfull stuff, but soul ?!?) - sometimes it feels like it`s being forgotten that the basic idea from the 1960`s onwards was about the "danceability" of records/songs (as many Northern Soul anthems are pop records to say the least).......and not labeling.....

off-topic end

Edited by soulpope
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off-topic :

as one of my other interests beneath jazz and classical music being soul music, i somehow felt reminded about the passionate followers of the genre "Northern Soul", who extended in the last couple of years (due to lack of new records issued/new "finds" of "old" records) this labeling even to R&B (very often soulfull stuff, but soul ?!?) - sometimes it feels like it`s being forgotten that the basic idea from the 1960`s onwards was about the "danceability" of records/songs (as many Northern Soul anthems are pop records to say the least).......and not labeling.....

off-topic end

When you say R&B, what do you mean? :D The forties/early fifties recordings of people like Louis Jordan, Joe Liggins, Charles Brown, Amos Milburn etc? Or something like what young people now are calling R&B, which appears to be everything from there and then to here and now? Which is what I call popular black music.

MG

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off-topic :

as one of my other interests beneath jazz and classical music being soul music, i somehow felt reminded about the passionate followers of the genre "Northern Soul", who extended in the last couple of years (due to lack of new records issued/new "finds" of "old" records) this labeling even to R&B (very often soulfull stuff, but soul ?!?) - sometimes it feels like it`s being forgotten that the basic idea from the 1960`s onwards was about the "danceability" of records/songs (as many Northern Soul anthems are pop records to say the least).......and not labeling.....

off-topic end

When you say R&B, what do you mean? :D The forties/early fifties recordings of people like Louis Jordan, Joe Liggins, Charles Brown, Amos Milburn etc? Or something like what young people now are calling R&B, which appears to be everything from there and then to here and now? Which is what I call popular black music.

MG

As I was never a "Northener" - my heart belongs to Soul Music created south of the "Mason-Dixon Line" - can give you just an example via following CD`s (but no forties/early fifties music for sure) :

http://acerecords.co.uk/new-breed-rb

7dde597527.jpg

http://acerecords.co.uk/king-new-breed-rhythm-blues

c7109de104.jpg

https://acerecords.co.uk/king-new-breed-rb-volume-2

9f9ba2219b.jpg

Sure you get the picture....

Edited by soulpope
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I think I see - this stuff is being labelled 'Northern Soul' nowadays, is it? (Not by Ace - I'm sure they're more careful than that.) Looks like a mix of blues & R&B, recorded in a transitional period before soul became completely entrenched as the mainstream of popular black music. These transitional things are not uninteresting, as a matter of principle, but even Ace suffers from trying to find 'rarities' that no one else has got.

MG

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I think I see - this stuff is being labelled 'Northern Soul' nowadays, is it? (Not by Ace - I'm sure they're more careful than that.) Looks like a mix of blues & R&B, recorded in a transitional period before soul became completely entrenched as the mainstream of popular black music. These transitional things are not uninteresting, as a matter of principle, but even Ace suffers from trying to find 'rarities' that no one else has got.

MG

Yes Ace is carefully labeling "Ace DANCE" - but of course in hope to cater the same clients/audience. And you`re right about the drought of soul " rarities" - and even if the one or other comes up, quite often there was (based on the music`s quality) a good reason for their rarity ;) ....

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Now, if Dan comes in, saying "there's no Three Sounds albums in there, what you playing at?" I claim ignorance because I don't know nearly as much as I should about them or Gene Harris himself.

I won't make any claims for any of the trio albums vis-à-vis "Soul Jazz" - I'll leave that to Ramsey Lewis who must have been the more significant piano trio leader in the 'soul jazz' field. But I certainly do have a problem with your inclusion of Stanley Turrentine's That's Where It's At, when a much better Turrentine + soulful pianist collaboration exists in the form of Blue Hour.

You already included Les McCann's In New York, why two collaborations with Mr. T? As much as I enjoy That's Where It's At, it pales in comparison to the original Blue Hour release.

YMMV, but it really shouldn't. :g

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Musicians play music. People like us put labels on what they play. I don't think that's always a good thing, but that's probably a whole other thread.

I am inclined to agree with you, Paul. Personally, I've stopped categorising different kinds of jazz in my database of my own collection. Now it's just a whole mish-mash of everything from Louis Armstrong to Fred Anderson. And the CDs are filed like that, too. So are the hard drives (though it takes a while to page down from Al Casey to Young-Holt Unlimited :)).

But, for me anyway, segregating, on the shelves, on the hard drives and in the database, mbalax from jazz, gospel, reggae &c serves a useful purpose, so I do it.

But I still perceive that there's a bunch of musicians/recordings that are soul jazz and that the history of this bunch is qualitatively different from other kinds of jazz, particularly in its feedback loop relationship to black popular music but also because developments in the music are very often driven by rhythm TEAMS (eg Timmons, Jones, Hayes; Patton, Green, Dixon; Spencer, Sparks, Muhammad), rather than by individual great geniuses. That's not something you get in other kinds of jazz, I think, though perhaps one might say it of the Basie rhythm section of the thirties. But people say a lot about his sax, trumpet and trombone players, so I don't know.

MG

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Now, if Dan comes in, saying "there's no Three Sounds albums in there, what you playing at?" I claim ignorance because I don't know nearly as much as I should about them or Gene Harris himself.

I won't make any claims for any of the trio albums vis-à-vis "Soul Jazz" - I'll leave that to Ramsey Lewis who must have been the more significant piano trio leader in the 'soul jazz' field. But I certainly do have a problem with your inclusion of Stanley Turrentine's That's Where It's At, when a much better Turrentine + soulful pianist collaboration exists in the form of Blue Hour.

You already included Les McCann's In New York, why two collaborations with Mr. T? As much as I enjoy That's Where It's At, it pales in comparison to the original Blue Hour release.

YMMV, but it really shouldn't. :g

OK, I'll accept what you say, Dan. I did ponder both those Turrentine albums and came up with 'That's where it's at' because I think McCann is a more significant soul jazz pianist than Gene. But I'm happy to change that. Got to admit that 'Blue hour' is probably the most perfect album of its type, even compared with Jug's Moodsville albums or any of the Midnight Slows. And you've drawn to my attention that, except for the Wes Montgomery Trio, which isn't all ballads of course, I didn't include a classic ballad album, which is a big mistake.

So I've changed those around.

MG

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