Bob Porter's SOUL JAZZ book

[JSngry]

There is, apparently, one point of view that "music" has no intrinsic "value" apart from that which is bestowed upon/removed from it by an industry that can profit by getting it to an audience and reaping the profits thereof. By this logic, music that has fallen out of favor with one audience has no "value" at all unless and until it gains a new audience to start circulating money.

The logical outcome of this kind of thinking is that value is determined solely by eternal, marketplace-performance criteria, which then reduces music (and musicians) to the level of a commodity like dish-washing liquid.

Off course, this is bullshit - great players never find audiences, great music never gets heard, popularity quite easily turns to obscurity, and Charlie Parker is still being listened to by more people than Freddie McCoy (and I suspect always has been and always will be). And definitely - music will keep spreading its seeds rather indiscriminately and eventually change its practitioners, who are ehn in turn poised to present their audiences with new considerations that said audiences (and their potentially parasitic industrial servicers) will then see what sticks. And when you're dealing with trying to get money from people who generally want momentary gratification (which is to say, damn near everybody), looking at what was "popular" for a quick minute without also considering what still retains, gains, or even loses value with the passage of time is going to make you think some funny things.

On the other hand, you can buy all the Charlie Parker records in the world and not find one of them with Joanne Brackeen on it. Freddie McCoy is the clear winner there, and that does tell you a lot of things, not so much about the music itself, Freddie McCoy tells you all you need to know about that, but about the culture that the music existed in, from, and around. Joanne Brackeen needed a gig, Freddie McCoy had one for her, and she knew how to play that gig well enough to keep it.

[Big Beat Steve]

Isn't that a different topic and discussion altogether again? Compared to what this book is all about and to what you found inapplicable about MG's latest statement re-Black & Blue?

 

[JSngry]

It's a discussion about a discussion about the book.

The book itself, and Bob Porter in general, still have my unqualified recommendation.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

On ‎15‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 4:30 AM, JSngry said:

So...if music only has "value" relative to its meeting the needs of an audience through an established industrial infrastructure, and if these guys had little to no work in the US because they were not meeting the needs of an audience through an established industrial infrastructure, Black & Blue was, like, what, welfare? Are any of those records on any charts anywhere? Were they ever?  Where is their "value"? What, are we treating this type of music and these type of people like some kind of pet charity, alms for MY needy? Help the poor Black Folks whose own people have left them behind, WE will give them their "value" back? Seriously?

I can tell you - Arnett Cobb had a Black (and most likely, Blue) audience in Houston for as long as he wanted one whether or not he made records for any damn body.

I'm extremely glad to hear that. It's the sort of information we foreigners never get told about. If a provocative post prompts it, I'm very glad of that, too.

Of COURSE, Black & Blue wasn't a charity. The firm knew there were people in Europe who wanted to hear this music. As Steve said, the guys were finding a new audience. Good. And it's important for musicians to be paid.

MG

 

[ghost of miles]

I just did a one-hour phone interview with Bob Porter for an upcoming Night Lights show and let him know about this thread, so he may be stopping by to give it a read.  So great to talk with him about the book!

[Dan Gould]

2 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

I just did a one-hour phone interview with Bob Porter for an upcoming Night Lights show and let him know about this thread, so he may be stopping by to give it a read.  So great to talk with him about the book!

Would be great as I'd have a question for him such as, with the concentration on the charts and what was popular, where do the Three Sounds fit in if they were such strong sellers for Blue Note at least in the first stint with the label? Were sales never really that great in an absolute sense but just strong for the label? 

Or was the group more popular with white jazz fans, less with black?

There really isn't much about funky piano trios but there were certainly a lot of them. Did Les McCann get his larger section because he had major hits much later? Or did McCann actually sell more records for PJ than the Sounds did for BN?

[robertoart]

17 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

I just did a one-hour phone interview with Bob Porter for an upcoming Night Lights show and let him know about this thread, so he may be stopping by to give it a read.  So great to talk with him about the book!

[rostasi]

Hello to Bob Porter! Loved your book.

[Big Beat Steve]

57 minutes ago, rostasi said:

Hello to Bob Porter! Loved your book.

+1  

[robertoart]

Two of my very very favourite albums!!!

[mjzee]

Reading your book now.  C'mon in...we need some greeeeeeeease!

[Bob Porter]

Hi Guys:

Regarding Soul Jazz:  I'm sorry many of you had a problem getting the book. I had a snafu with the publisher and it blew the entire Xmas season. It should be available now at Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

I'll be happy to answer any specific questions.

Let me throw something out here: I used the Billboard chart positions with the firm knowledge that they were not all that accurate. If anyone is interested i can get more specific. 

[robertoart]

Welcome Mr Bob Porter!!!!!!

Wake up MG...Mr Porters in the house!!!!

[Bob Porter]

Regarding the Three Sounds: They were an example of a group-Red Garland was another-that sold consistently. While the numbers were not in the hit making range, they were inexpensive to record. I can't speak directly to The Three Sounds but Red Garland and his trio could knock out an album in three hours or less and the total cost would be around $1000. A sale of 5,000 would not hit any chart but it would make plenty of money for the company.

Les McCann was another story. He sold lots of records, was played on all jazz radio stations and even did tv shows (I remember seeing him on Steve Allen playing "The Shampoo").

 

Both groups toured nationally and thus became known nationally. The 1960s audience for these trios was about 95% black. 

 

 

[Dan Gould]

38 minutes ago, Bob Porter said:

Regarding the Three Sounds: They were an example of a group-Red Garland was another-that sold consistently. While the numbers were not in the hit making range, they were inexpensive to record. I can't speak directly to The Three Sounds but Red Garland and his trio could knock out an album in three hours or less and the total cost would be around $1000. A sale of 5,000 would not hit any chart but it would make plenty of money for the company.

Les McCann was another story. He sold lots of records, was played on all jazz radio stations and even did tv shows (I remember seeing him on Steve Allen playing "The Shampoo").

 

Both groups toured nationally and thus became known nationally. The 1960s audience for these trios was about 95% black. 

 

 

Interesting about McCann being on TV.

I think its well known that the Sounds went in and banged out successful takes very easily. Bill Dowdy told me that it was rare to do more than one take per tune.  It's also said that their sales allowed the label to record and issue some of the less successful (in the marketplace) recordings.

Any thoughts on why they didn't sell well in the CD era? I'm grateful to Michael Cuscuna that he got as much of their recordings out on CD but he said he couldn't even consider a Select set let alone a big box due to anticipated sales or  lack thereof.

 

Thanks Bob!

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Bob Porter said:

Let me throw something out here: I used the Billboard chart positions with the firm knowledge that they were not all that accurate. If anyone is interested i can get more specific. 

Hi Bob, welcome, thank you, all that!

What do you know about the first Bird w/Strings date selling relatively well, or "Just Friends" being considered a hit in our history books. I searched in vain for any of that on any chart, but I've heard that repeated so long by so many that I can't imagine it being strictly fiction. Any light to shine?

And thanks again for the Gene Ammons chapter. that was beautiful.

And for the Rusty Bryant Phoenix side. That was too!

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, Bob Porter said:

Hi Guys:

Regarding Soul Jazz:  I'm sorry many of you had a problem getting the book. I had a snafu with the publisher and it blew the entire Xmas season. It should be available now at Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

Great to have you here.

As for getting the book (I was one of those who initially had difficulties), and as for blowing the entire Xmas season - looking at the final page of my copy it gives a printing date of 24 December 2016 (!). Somebody working late hours at the printers? Looking closer at the fine print in the book had me wonder - could it be that this is a print-on-demand publication?

Thanks for your book which is a great read (and let me say from here it is also appreciated overseas) - and a particular thank you for highlighting the links between jazz and post-war R&B artists and recordings - this is an aspect that long deserved to be pointed out IMO.

[mjzee]

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

Any thoughts on why they didn't sell well in the CD era? I'm grateful to Michael Cuscuna that he got as much of their recordings out on CD but he said he couldn't even consider a Select set let alone a big box due to anticipated sales or  lack thereof.

For what it's worth, there's a mea culpa of sorts currently on the Mosaic homepage.  In a mention of the Resonance release, Cuscuna writes: "The Three Sounds is the one Blue Note act that we always wanted to do a box on, but never did. Our “complete” concept would have pushed the size of a set by just the original trio, with Gene Harris, Andy Simpkins and Bill Dowdy, to more than 10 CDs!!!! Now that their Verve and Mercury/Limelight sessions are under the same ownership, such a set could take on enormous proportions."

[Chuck Nessa]

Just want to welcome my old friend to the joint.

[Brad]

13 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Interesting about McCann being on TV.

I think its well known that the Sounds went in and banged out successful takes very easily. Bill Dowdy told me that it was rare to do more than one take per tune.  It's also said that their sales allowed the label to record and issue some of the less successful (in the marketplace) recordings.

Any thoughts on why they didn't sell well in the CD era? I'm grateful to Michael Cuscuna that he got as much of their recordings out on CD but he said he couldn't even consider a Select set let alone a big box due to anticipated sales or  lack thereof.

 

Thanks Bob!

 

12 hours ago, mjzee said:

For what it's worth, there's a mea culpa of sorts currently on the Mosaic homepage.  In a mention of the Resonance release, Cuscuna writes: "The Three Sounds is the one Blue Note act that we always wanted to do a box on, but never did. Our “complete” concept would have pushed the size of a set by just the original trio, with Gene Harris, Andy Simpkins and Bill Dowdy, to more than 10 CDs!!!! Now that their Verve and Mercury/Limelight sessions are under the same ownership, such a set could take on enormous proportions."

Welcome Mr Porter. I would have enjoyed such a set -- in some form -- but glad that I have the various albums.  When I need a pick me up, I listen to them (among other times!). 

[Bob Porter]

I think the Three Sounds music has a somewhat dated sound. It is music of its time. I much prefer Harris after the Sounds. The black audience was always quick to move on-to find the next big thing. Once the Three Sounds were perceived as old hat, it was over. I don't think there would be much interest in CDs by the group. 

[Dan Gould]

1 hour ago, Bob Porter said:

I think the Three Sounds music has a somewhat dated sound. It is music of its time. I much prefer Harris after the Sounds. The black audience was always quick to move on-to find the next big thing. Once the Three Sounds were perceived as old hat, it was over. I don't think there would be much interest in CDs by the group. 

Good enough. Wondering though when you feel that their audience moved on. I ask because I just recently picked up a publicity photo of the group, it was in the archives of the Detroit Free Press. It went to the paper to support a ten day engagement at Baker's Keyboard Lounge, in November of 1968.  I'm kind of curious when bookings declined to 5 or 6 days as opposed to the golden era when their were six week contracts with an option to renew. This is kinda in the middle but longer than I would have guessed.

 

[Bob Porter]

-A quick note to say there is a review of Soul Jazz in the current issue of Blues & Rhythm (London) by Bill Vera,

More reviews on the way...

-Regarding the Three Sounds and the demise of the group: Harris is still using the name for Blue Note sessions 

as late as 73. By 1974, Disco had started to flatten everything. Harris does a few Blue Notes using his own name

with the last one being recorded in mid-77. He never used the name after he went to Concord. 

-An earlier item regarding Charlie Parker and the "hit" status of "Just Friends" can be traced to Phil Schaap. There are all kinds of "hits": airplay, most requested, juke box, etc that don't always translate into sales. Was "Just Friends" the most successful Charlie Parker record? Unquestionably. Was it in the sales range of Ella,Peterson or JATP? No Way. However, when The Complete Charlie Parker with Strings was issued on a Verve CD, that was a hit.  

[monkboughtlunch]

Hi Bob,

I recently tracked down a mint copy of the Houston Person "The Real Thing" LP from 1973 (live material) that you produced.  

It's revelatory hearing Grant Green play some traditional straight ahead type material (and jazz standards) in the 1970s on this Houston Person LP since Green's own early 1970s Blue Note albums were more funk (boogaloo) oriented.  "The Real Thing" is unique in that it may be the only example of Green playing in a more traditional jazz form on any of his 1970s LPs.

Do you remember how many sets were recorded with Grant Green for "The Real Thing" and if additional material was recorded beyond what was published on the LP?

in the early 1990s, a compilation CD included an outtake from the live date -- Lester Leaps In.   However, I don't think the double album has ever been reissued on CD (aside from a few tracks on compilation discs).

http://www.jazzdisco.org/grant-green/catalog/

Houston Person - The Real Thing  (Eastbound 2EB 9010)

Marcus Belgrave (trumpet -2,5,6) Houston Person (tenor sax) Jimmy Watson (organ -1) Sonny Phillips (organ -2,4/6) Jack McDuff (organ -3) Grant Green (lead guitar) Robert Lowe (rhythm guitar -2,5,6) James Jamieson (bass -2,5,6) Hank Brown (drums -1) Idris Muhammad (drums -2/6) Buddy Caldwell (congas, tambourine -2,5)

"Watt's Club", Detroit, MI, March 14 or 15, 1973

1.	Since I Fell For You
2.	Pain
3.	Angel Eyes
4.	Easy Walker
5.	Could It Be I'm Falling In Love
6.	Crazy Legs

 

Various Artists - Together - The Eastbound Jazz Years  (Beat Goes Public CD BGPD 071)

Houston Person (tenor sax) Jack McDuff (organ) Grant Green (lead guitar) Idris Muhammad (drums)

"Watt's Club", Detroit, MI, March 14 or 15, 1973

Lester Leaps In

 

There's a picture of Grant in the LP liner notes playing what appears to be his D'Aquisto New Yorker.

Edited March 14, 2017 by monkboughtlunch

[mjzee]

I finished reading the book last night.  The last chapter on Winston Walls was very poignant.  We all know how that feels - it was such a great era, and you look around, and who can you share that with?  I felt parallels with a movie I saw recently, "Deli Man," about the rise and fall of delicatessens in America.  Such wonderful food, exemplifying a culture, and yet they've almost all disappeared.  

If you choose to post here more often, whether in this or in other threads, you'll find you're among people who know who Winston Walls was.

Edited March 29, 2017 by mjzee