A possibly heretical statement re Bill Evans' first trio

[Joe]

Don Friedman... often described as Evans-inspired, and, sure, there's some of that there (not dat dere), though Friedman was basically a contemporary of Evans and not a follower per se... and they did work with some of the same "sidemen" (Chuck Israels)... but, most days, I'd rather put on a Friedman record than one of Evans'... Had Evans embraced some of the more expressionistic and experimental notions inherent in his approach, he might have gone where Friedman went. Glad to have both, of course, as Romanticism is no monolith. But if you are looking for the approximate feel you get from Evans + PJJ or Evans in George Russell's small groups, or Evans without his slump / slouch, may I suggest some Don Friedman?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Joe

[Larry Kart]

Don Friedman... often described as Evans-inspired, and, sure, there's some of that there (not dat dere), though Friedman was basically a contemporary of Evans and not a follower per se... and they did work with some of the same "sidemen" (Chuck Israels)... but, most days, I'd rather put on a Friedman record than one of Evans'... Had Evans embraced some of the more expressionistic and experimental notions inherent in his approach, he might have gone where Friedman went. Glad to have both, of course, as Romanticism is no monolith. But if you are looking for the approximate feel you get from Evans + PJJ or Evans in George Russell's small groups, or Evans without his the slump / slouch, may I suggest some Don Friedman?

[Milestones]

A little surprised to see quite a bit of negativity toward Bill Evans. In contrast, there was a thread here (or maybe it was elsewhere) which offered virtually nothing but glowing comments.

I would say Sunday at the Village Vanguard is an excellent record, though probably not a desert island pick. For this trio, I think my first choice is Portrait in Jazz.

[Scott Dolan]

If there was, like, a Noah's Ark of post-bop/pre-Cecil pianists, and this ark had one seat left on it, and the rain was stating to come down pretty good, and the two people left at the boarding ramp were Bill Evans & Keith Jarrett,, I'd round up a posse to find Paul Bley in five minutes or less, get him on the boat in a bigass hurry, close it on up, and tell Evans and Jarrett to head for high ground ASAP, sorry, nothing personal,, but we got all that now, plus a little somethin-somethin extra. See ya'll after this whole thing blows over and dries out!

Yes, I'm fully aware of the polarization Jarrett creates, but he's still a fave of mine. Though, in the case of Bley, I will have to admit that I just haven't heard enough of him.

And Cooper-Moore is most definitely post-Cecil, so no need to narrow your scope.

[JSngry]

Oh, I like Keith too, not as devotional about it as some of the more ardent folks, but definitely more than the auto-haters either.

But in this scenario, it's all about only room for one more, so you got to think overall group comfort. Evans couldn't sit up straight, the attendants would be having to work around him and all that, he'd always be at a 90 degree angle, but the wrong way, and Jarrett would be whining/groaning all the time.

The choices are between the Proner, the Moaner, or Paul Bley. On my boat, for my passengers' comfort and pleasure, Bley gets the seat.

Anchors away!

[BillF]

A little surprised to see quite a bit of negativity toward Bill Evans. In contrast, there was a thread here (or maybe it was elsewhere) which offered virtually nothing but glowing comments.

I would say Sunday at the Village Vanguard is an excellent record, though probably not a desert island pick. For this trio, I think my first choice is Portrait in Jazz.

[Big Beat Steve]

Anchors away!

Aweigh!!

You might need that anchor some other time again!

[Scott Dolan]

All fair points, Jim.

Though, I guess that makes Monk extremely problematic what with all the getting up and dancing every five minutes.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[JSngry]

Yeah, but Monk owns the boat. Quiet as it's kept, Monk was a big arksman.

[David Ayers]

Can somebody explain 'Five' to me? I can't follow it.

[sgcim]

I happen to be listening to the little regarded Costa record w- Evans and he is attentive responsive and clever - quite enjoyable.

According to a friend of mine who led groups at the real Birdland that featured at different times Eddie or Bill on piano, EC and BE were close friends, and may have had an influence on each other.

BE had a more percussive approach, like EC, on the early stuff with Geo. Russell and "New Jazz Conceptions", while EC's last recordings,Shelly Manne's "1-2-3" and the Brookmeyer/Terry LP, featured a more modern BE harmonic approach.

Another LP that had the two together was "Jazz Abstractions" which also featured LaFaro, Dolphy and Jim Hall. it don't get much better than that!

[jeffcrom]

Can somebody explain 'Five' to me? I can't follow it.

Here's more or less what's going on:

In the A sections, there are five even notes (or rests) in every four-beat measure.

The bridge is mostly in three, but there are four even notes in every three-beat measure.

There are a few little quirks, but that's more or less it.

In my public school teaching days, I used to amuse myself when I had morning bus duty by practicing fours against threes and fives against fours with different hands.

Edited November 13, 2014 by jeffcrom

[AllenLowe]

1) I like the vanguard Sessions a lot; my favorite Evans is still the '56 OJC, the live sessions with Tony Scott, the George Russell (especially the interchanges with Bley); also the half note with Marsh/Konitz.

2) Philly Joe was Evans' favorite drummer, but too unreliable; I got that right from the horse's mouth, as the saying goes

3) The difference between the Miles Davis Sextet and the Miles Davis Quintet was, at last count, one musician.

4) Duke Jordan told me he and Evans used to do duets. The mind boggles, wish someone had recorded.

4) in the end, Bud Powell is God. There is no God before him (or after him).

Edited November 13, 2014 by AllenLowe

[Scott Dolan]

Yeah, but Monk owns the boat. Quiet as it's kept, Monk was a big arksman.

I count myself as one of the bigger Monk fans here, so why didn't I receive this memo?! Hearing this second hand is quite distressing, to say the least (which is my specialty).

But if true, which I'm still suspicious of (considering the questionable source), then I need to find a fifth pianist. Is Eric Reed acceptable? Yeah, he played with Wynton. But, he was exceptional, AND he's had a decent enough solo career.

3) The difference between the Miles Davis Sextet and the Miles Davis Quintet was, at last count, one musician.

Ah, yes. The rub!

Hmmmm...

I guess if we call all other positions a wash, it comes down to a Shorter vs. Coltrane/Adderley death match.

That won't end well...

[JSngry]

That's why it needs to go offshore, to international waters, like William F. Buckley did when he decided to try pot.

Monk got the boat!

[David Ayers]

Can somebody explain 'Five' to me? I can't follow it.

Here's more or less what's going on:

In the A sections, there are five even notes (or rests) in every four-beat measure.

The bridge is mostly in three, but there are four even notes in every three-beat measure.

There are a few little quirks, but that's more or less it.

In my public school teaching days, I used to amuse myself when I had morning bus duty by practicing fours against threes and fives against fours with different hands.

Thank you. And, yikes.

[Scott Dolan]

That's why it needs to go offshore, to international waters, like William F. Buckley did when he decided to try pot.

Monk got the boat!

Shame on me for buying into this nonsense.

You had me going for a minute there. Monk was an avid sailor...

But, your rudely facetious indictment of Buckley was the final straw.

May God have mercy on your soul...

[paul secor]

Whenever I listen to the Vanguard recordings, it sounds as if the engineer boosted LaFaro's sound to almost give him equal footing with Evans' piano. I don't think the it would have sounded like that live, only on record.

The Vanguard recordings are ok - overrated in my opinion, relative to other jazz that was being played at the time - but I'm with those who dig the pre-Vanguard Evans more and with those who say that Philly Joe was the drummer for Evans.

[JSngry]

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/27/qa-with-sam-tanenhaus-on-william-f-buckley/?_r=0

Q: William F. Buckley famously admitted to having smoked pot at least once on his boat outside U.S. territorial waters. Did he continue to smoke it after trying it? What if anything did he say about the subject? —Rich Turyn

A: If so, only seldom. But Buckley was much piqued by the counter-culture. He recently told me an amusing anecdote on this general subject. In the 1970s, Buckley and one of his mentors, the political thinker James Burnham, decided they would indulge in some current vices by smoking pot and then watching the sex-drenched film “I am Curious — Yellow.” The pot was procured by Bill’s chauffeur. It was a good plan — or seemed so, except they made the mistake of drinking alcohol first. This blunted the effects of the pot, and they both fell asleep during the film.

Monk's boat, baby. Nobody falls asleep on Monk's ark.

[B. Clugston]

Put me down as a big fan of the Village Vanguard recordings, though perhaps heretically, I listen to Living Time with George Russell more often.

[Guy Berger]

Don Friedman... often described as Evans-inspired, and, sure, there's some of that there (not dat dere), though Friedman was basically a contemporary of Evans and not a follower per se... and they did work with some of the same "sidemen" (Chuck Israels)... but, most days, I'd rather put on a Friedman record than one of Evans'... Had Evans embraced some of the more expressionistic and experimental notions inherent in his approach, he might have gone where Friedman went. Glad to have both, of course, as Romanticism is no monolith. But if you are looking for the approximate feel you get from Evans + PJJ or Evans in George Russell's small groups, or Evans without his slump / slouch, may I suggest some Don Friedman?

Good call. I really like Friedman's early/mid 60s playing.

[sgcim]

1) I like the vanguard Sessions a lot; my favorite Evans is still the '56 OJC, the live sessions with Tony Scott, the George Russell (especially the interchanges with Bley); also the half note with Marsh/Konitz.

2) Philly Joe was Evans' favorite drummer, but too unreliable; I got that right from the horse's mouth, as the saying goes

3) The difference between the Miles Davis Sextet and the Miles Davis Quintet was, at last count, one musician.

4) Duke Jordan told me he and Evans used to do duets. The mind boggles, wish someone had recorded.

4) in the end, Bud Powell is God. There is no God before him (or after him).

2) Philly Joe was supposedly the guy that first turned BE on to horse (speaking of the horse's mouth ). The story was that someone told BE that he was rushing, so he asked PJJ what he should do. PJJ said "Here, try some of this... Maybe that's why he was BE's fave drummer...

5) Maybe so, but that would make BE JC The question is: who was the missing link between BP and BE? Andy LaVerne has postulated that it was Sonny Clark.

Edited November 14, 2014 by sgcim

[Chuck Nessa]

Needless brain drain at this point (we could all blame Bird for smack or Pops for weed - the gateway). Listen to the music and enjoy or not.

[jeffcrom]

I'd like to second Milestones' endorsement of Portrait In Jazz - probably my favorite Evans album. If there is anyone who kind-of-likes-but-is-somewhat-bothered-by-the-VV-sessions and doesn't know Portrait, they should check it out. Even though it's the same trio as on the Vanguard dates, Portrait is more of a conventional piano trio - a really, really good one - with the piano firmly in the lead, rather than the equal-voiced dialogues of the VV albums.

I'd also like to put in a "vote" for the short-lived Evans trio with Eddie Gomez and Jack DeJohnette. As far as I know, the only recorded evidence is the 1968 Montreux album and four tracks in the Secret Sessions box. I would like to have heard what this trio could have become if they had been together long enough to jell a bit more, but it's an interesting group.

[jlhoots]

Needless brain drain at this point (we could all blame Bird for smack or Pops for weed - the gateway). Listen to the music and enjoy or not.

The voice of reason. Thanks!!