A possibly heretical statement re Bill Evans' first trio

[danasgoodstuff]

I thought Bird and Round Midnight were both pretty much a mess, don't expect much from the forthcoming Miles biopic, and generally wish Hollywood would leave jazz alone. Bill Moody's books were amusing til he had his protaganist dis Burt B... And focussing on how people died is morbid, but if you want to do that how about a Sam Cooke biopic, told from Bobby Womack's POV?

[AllenLowe]

haven't seen the new Joe Albany; avoiding it for personal reasons, but I hear it's pretty good.

[clifford_thornton]

yeah i've heard that too.

actually I vote for Michael Imperioli, the guy who played Christopher Moltisanti on the Sopranos (Tony Soprano's junkie nephew - great actor).

[Guy Berger]

You know, it's funny - this thread prompted me to dig out this recording. It will never be a real favorite, just because I'm not crazy about this genre of piano trios, but it's a very enjoyable listening experience.

[sgcim]

If you can put up with the obsessive, suicide-inducing verbosity of Phil Schaap every Monday at 12 noon on WKCR, he's still doing a two hour feature on BE's music leading up to the LaFaro- Motian BE Trio.

Today he offered some crackpot theory on BE's tempo variation issues and told us about the significance of getting LaFaro's autograph on a napkin at the VV in 1961 with SLF penning the name SCOTTY instead of SCOTT!

[fasstrack]

If you can put up with the obsessive, suicide-inducing verbosity of Phil Schaap every Monday at 12 noon on WKCR, he's still doing a two hour feature on BE's music leading up to the LaFaro- Motian BE Trio.

Today he offered some crackpot theory on BE's tempo variation issues and told us about the significance of getting LaFaro's autograph on a napkin at the VV in 1961 with SLF penning the name SCOTTY instead of SCOTT!

He thinks that trio was revolutionary.

[Larry Kart]

What is Schapp's crackpot theory on "BE's tempo variation issues," if you can or care to say? Also, was he referring to BE's tendency to rush in later years or to something else?

[sgcim]

He attributed it to drug issues.

[Larry Kart]

He attributed it to drug issues.

If any drug can make you or encourage you to rush, cocaine would be it, and I believe that was BE's drug of choice in those later years when rushing was what he fairly often did. Why "crackpot theory" then?

[JSngry]

Because it's only acid and free jazz that fuck each other up?

[Chuck Nessa]

I was involved in a really uncomfortable scene involving Don DeMichael, Helen Keane and Toshiko. Don was escorting the women to a record shop in Evanston, IL. They were in town for a "women in jazz" program at Northwestern University. Don spotted me in the store and introduced me to his guests as someone who recently recorded Warne Marsh. Toshiko warmly shook my hand and told me about the session she produced with Warne and Lew Tabackin. Keane slowly extended a hand and mentioned a Bill Evans session with Warne and Lee. I thanked both of them, said I was honored to meet them and we all moved on.

Later Don said Helen remarked "did you see how he recoiled - they just can't accept women as producers".

[AllenLowe]

his late drug of choice was coke, which he was mainlining; nothing was stranger than getting a phone call one afternoon in the late 1970s, when I lived in New Haven, and hearing a voice on the other side of the phone say "hi Allen, this is Bill Evans. Do you know where I can score some cocaine?"

really did happen, as he I knew his wife Nanette. Somewhat disconcerting.

[MomsMobley]

What kind of cocktails are we talking about?

an important question & evidence, if more was needed, how generally deleterious Evans' career was that the best-- the correct-- answer hasn't already been offered. Re: Evans, the George Russell sides are best, a few others OK, the rest one, two and three are much better listening to Scriabin, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, numerous non-Russians, NEVER fucking Jarrett, tho' admittedly Hampton Hawes did rip Keith off on that gospel album for Contemporary I'm forgetting the title of.

Edited November 26, 2014 by MomsMobley

[JSngry]

. ...Re: Evans, the George Russell sides are best,..

hmmm...maybe some, but not all.

I like that Tony Scott shit, the stuff where Tony just rented a studio, called people in, did about 20 albums worth of tunes, and then sold them off bit by bit. That's Evans at my favorite/best, just being there and reacting. He was a shrewd reactor at that time, one of the best. I also like his solos best when he leaves long silences and then jabs a whole solos worth of ideas into one or two lines and then backs off again, like he feels guilty about even having these ideas, so maybe nobody will notice. That's the crazyass neurotic almost-genius Bill Evans that I'll always dig.

As a proactor, though...hmmmm....after a while, c'mon, sit up straight, take the needle outta your arm, eat your vegetables, maybe work with clay in your off hours, and stop playing all that pretty shit all the damn time, ok, and for god's sake, stop trying to overcompensate for the heroin by doing the blow, and for the pretty with the aggressive-pretty. It doesn't help, ok?

Then again, too late now!

[sgcim]

The only time I thought that BE rushing unmusically was on one of the bootleg CDs they made towards the end of his life, when some people might have been aware that he was in bad shape, so they decided to tape every gig he played.

I'm sure he wouldn't have let them release the live CD I'm talking about if he knew it existed, but he was obviously wired up on that one gig.

BE was such a perfectionist that he didn't even want the first Verve LP he made with Getz released, but he had switched record companies after that, so he had no say in the matter.

I saw the BE trio the last time they played at the VV, and as people here have attested to, his rhythmic/harmonic displacement approach was so advanced that even Marian McPartland had a hard time playing standards with him on her show.

MM: "Oh, I feel like I'm swimming against the tide!"

[fasstrack]

The only time I thought that BE rushing unmusically was on one of the bootleg CDs they made towards the end of his life, when some people might have been aware that he was in bad shape, so they decided to tape every gig he played.

I'm sure he wouldn't have let them release the live CD I'm talking about if he knew it existed, but he was obviously wired up on that one gig.

BE was such a perfectionist that he didn't even want the first Verve LP he made with Getz released, but he had switched record companies after that, so he had no say in the matter.

I saw the BE trio the last time they played at the VV, and as people here have attested to, his rhythmic/harmonic displacement approach was so advanced that even Marian McPartland had a hard time playing standards with him on her show.

MM: "Oh, I feel like I'm swimming against the tide!"

Neither Evans nor Getz wanted that recording released. Getz had a clause in his contract with Verve wherein no recording could be released without his approval, but they released it anyway without approval years later.

That Marian McPartland show was a great example of how together Evans could be talking about his music despite his personal indulgences. Listening to it, it's hard to imagine a coke fiend was talking. He was articulate and played beautifully. It was a great show.

He attributed it to drug issues.

If any drug can make you or encourage you to rush, cocaine would be it, and I believe that was BE's drug of choice in those later years when rushing was what he fairly often did. Why "crackpot theory" then?

The rushing really was a problem in later years, but it was there earlier---just not as often. He was always a little on top of the beat. Listen to Very Early from Moonbeams. It speeds up, and that was the early sixties. The cocaine probably brought it out more, but the tendency was there.

[Larry Kart]

A mention of BE's rushing from the BE web page:

http://www.billevanswebpages.com/gettingsent_revue.html

Don't know this album, but I recall this sort of thing from "California Here I Come."

[Larry Kart]

What kind of cocktails are we talking about?

an important question & evidence, if more was needed, how generally deleterious Evans' career was that the best-- the correct-- answer hasn't already been offered. Re: Evans, the George Russell sides are best, a few others OK, the rest one, two and three are much better listening to Scriabin, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, numerous non-Russians, NEVER fucking Jarrett, tho' admittedly Hampton Hawes did rip Keith off on that gospel album for Contemporary I'm forgetting the title of.

An adjunct to the RCA Russell dates is BE on Hal McKusick's "Cross-Section Saxes," with writing by Russell, George Handy, Giufffre, and Ernie Wilkins.

http://www.jazzwax.com/2010/05/hal-mckusick-cross-sectionsaxes.html

[sgcim]

A mention of BE's rushing from the BE web page:

http://www.billevanswebpages.com/gettingsent_revue.html

Don't know this album, but I recall this sort of thing from "California Here I Come

A mention of BE's rushing from the BE web page:

http://www.billevanswebpages.com/gettingsent_revue.html

Don't know this album, but I recall this sort of thing from "California Here I Come."

Yes, that's the CD I was talking about. It was recorded terribly by Mike Harris, who secretly recorded a lot of BE's gigs, and the sound on this CD is especially bad.

Like the review said, it sounded like one long Philly Joe Jones drum solo because of the mic placement. It never should have been released.

I don't think that you can compare this recording to "California Here I Come", because:

1) BE didn't know it was being recorded, and never would have approved its release in a million years.

2) The sound is horrendous on it.

3) "California Here I Come" had no examples of Evans as out of control as he obviously was on the "Gettin' Sentimental Over You " CD.

4) BE was aware that he was being recorded on "CHIC" and wasn't mainlining coke. The "GSOY" CD should be played as part of a drug abuse education course for young jazz pianists in college. Just from listening to the way he rushed through "In Your Own Sweet Way" would be enough to 'scare the kids straight'.

Using one secretly taped,incompetently taped, drug impaired performance to assess a musician's playing in general, is not a good idea.

I've heard so many poor live performances by musicians generally accepted as great, that using them as examples of their playing in general would be ridiculous.

[AllenLowe]

on a good day Evans, even in the midst of his late drug addiction, was clear headed and articulate. I only had one such conversation with him (at his 50th birthday party), and it was very interesting.

[sgcim]

on a good day Evans, even in the midst of his late drug addiction, was clear headed and articulate. I only had one such conversation with him (at his 50th birthday party), and it was very interesting.

Do you want us to beg?

[fasstrack]

I guess the board will let me know if I'm beating a dead horse here. I've been listening to Evans since starting this thread and still have things to say.

Last night I listened to California Here I Come. It seems like a great idea on paper, with Philly Joe Jones (who Evans idealized). But Bill is pushing so hard it makes for uncomfortable listening. On Gone With the Wind and Round Midnight he sounds almost frenetic. Eddie Gomez's manic soloing doesn't help. It almost foretells the final VV sessions that were recorded and released as Turn Out the Stars. Bill is very edgy on these dates and frequently rushes.

I listened to Barry Harris Plays Tadd Dameron before listening to Bill, and, as far as Bill Evans swinging or not---well I could happily pat my foot to Barry.

[Larry Kart]

I guess the board will let me know if I'm beating a dead horse here. I've been listening to Evans since starting this thread and still have things to say.

Last night I listened to California Here I Come. It seems like a great idea on paper, with Philly Joe Jones (who Evans idealized). But Bill is pushing so hard it makes for uncomfortable listening. On Gone With the Wind and Round Midnight he sounds almost frenetic. Eddie Gomez's manic soloing doesn't help. It almost foretells the final VV sessions that were recorded and released as Turn Out the Stars. Bill is very edgy on these dates and frequently rushes.

I listened to Barry Harris Plays Tadd Dameron before listening to Bill, and, as far as Bill Evans swinging or not---well I could happily pat my foot to Barry.

That's my impression of "California Here I Come" -- or it was, don't think I have the records anymore. I agree about the "Turn Out the Stars" recordings, too.

[Big Beat Steve]

Following this topic, the impression I get here as an outsider looking in (what I have by Bill Evans are sideman dates) raises a few questions:

Could it be that overall (given his stature and reputation, in particular) BE's output as a leader was uncommonly erratic?

Was it a question of being THAT beset by his personal demons?

Edited December 5, 2014 by Big Beat Steve

[AllenLowe]

well, just to respond - that conversation was in Evans' kitchen, 35 years ago, so my memory is faded - he told me about his problems with Philly Joe - and, speaking of a dead horse (since I talk about this other musician all the time), he said the following:

"To my mind there were only two alto players from that generation who didn't copy Bird - Lee Konitz and Dave Schildkraut. Dave was amazing."