Mosaic plans Beehive box

[Larry Kart]

Attaway, Jim. That "at a hotel bar I’d be delighted" line speaks volumes, as does "(Note to self: Listen to more Fathead Newman.)" As for "Perhaps Jordan is being a bit cruel here to his home team: 'In New York, we play the hard forms right on the first take. Sorry, guys'” -- words fail me. 

Edited October 21, 2015 by Larry Kart

[JSngry]

Don't get me started on a guy who's been slobberavating (and justly so) about the lessons he's learned(?) from Tootie Heath mistaking Charles Davis for Ricky Ford. That's  RookieBall Matinee right there, so many different ways of wrong that once you DO do the math you gotta figure that there's no right in there in the first place, none at all.

And ok, this:

Vernel Fournier sounds so great. What a hell of a drummer. There must have been some extra-musical reason he wasn’t used more by the cats.

 I don't know what that means.

[king ubu]

ouch! big ouch indeed!

[paul secor]

Reminder to self: Never write anything critical when these guys are around,

[king ubu]

Well, the point is, whenever you write in public, you will not only write about what you do know, but also reveal what you do not know ... uttering strong opinions in fields you don't know well might not be such a smart idea since you're more likely to expose some of your blind spots ...

I've enjoyed reading some of Iverson's interviews and other blog posts very much (the ones on Donald Bailey or Paul Motian for instance, the Mickey Roker interview, the big Pres tribute ...), but at times like this, he comes across as quite full of ... whatever.

[JSngry]

And either be stupid, or be wrong. One or the other, not both, especially not both at the time, because then you come off as just young, ignorant, arrogant, and worst of all, provincial.

[king ubu]

yeah, of course ... one part of being intelligent is at least trying to be aware of things you don't know ... I guess provinciality is a state of mind - and it's the opposite of, well, there's no real english word, but the state you should reach after Enlightenment has been done with (and I refuse to believe that Enlightenment has failed) ... it's really you own call to make, so I'm not even sure stupid and dumb remain different options, in the end

[Kevin Bresnahan]

"It’s not fair to the box to open this review with the Salvador records, really, except that what the box does open with is even worse, a two-bari date featuring Nick Brignola and Pepper Adams. Derek Smith, Dave Holland, and Roy Haynes are the rhythm section. Jesus Christ, do they all go down with the ship on track one, “Donna Lee.” The tempo is very fast, and while Brignola at least keeps the form, Smith loses his place at least twice. Admittedly, Dave Holland and Roy Haynes are pretty ragged as well. Holland got better at this style, but in 1977 I don’t think he’d played with many musicians as authentically bebop as Roy Haynes. So it is up to Pepper Adams, who rescues us from total chaos thanks to his impeccable authority. Pepper plays a long time, perfect, almost like Coltrane or Rollins, clearly trying to teach everyone else what uptempo jazz is supposed to be. I always enjoy Adams, but his mastery is revealed as truly Olympian in this context."

C'mon, Iverson - you boil down several Brignola dates to the one track where pianist Derek Smith clearly loses his shit a few times? Did he even listen to the rest of the stuff? How about Brignola's other bari date, "Burn Brigade", with Brignola, Cuber and Payne? Talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water.

You know, I've given burns of Brignola's "Baritone Madness" to several people over the years and told them to listen to the first track and hear these guys trying to play "Donna Lee" at the most insane tempo ever with the caveat that the pianist *fails* to do it. It's a "wart", but a wart on the most beautiful face. Why does every track have to be perfect to be enjoyed? It is times like this that I am glad that I am a listener and not a player. I am glad that I am not listening for every "mistake" on every track and giving grades for each solo. I am extremely glad that I can find incredible enjoyment where players like Iverson find disappointment.

[king ubu]

Agreed - "Baritone Madness" happens to be one of the few of the albums included that I've had a chance to hear ("Neo/Nistico" and the Reece are the only others, I think) - and while ragged, it's quite a nice indeed!

[JSngry]

Treading carefully here, because...well, just because...but it seems that the more and more exposure to one subset of jazz, not as "just music" but as "holistic culture", he gets, the more dismissive he becomes of other jazz musics not because they're in any way lesser, but because they're not examples of the little bit that he's had the opportunity to peep into. So many of those people on those Beehive records had/still have had some very strong lives within different areas of the overall "jazz life". If the dude wants to be smart instead of smart-aleck, he should do a little digging before talking about hotel lounges and Clifford Jordan dissing his local band and ignunt shit like that. You don't have to do your homework to enjoy or not enjoy the music, but you do if you want to write about it as a player and not come off as a limited-knowledge bloviator,

Anytime I hear somebody who's a generation or more younger than me talk about people who are a generation or more older than me as "the cats", I listen very carefully to what comes next. Always.

Right now, it sounds like he's doing the math by using the factors he already knows to get the answers he thinks he ought to get.

At the very least, anybody who's based in NYC and desires to be serious about "the life" and pisses all over a chance to open a door on Charles Davis has fucked up, simple as that.

[Brad]

He sounds like an ass.

I've been lucky to get some of the Bee Hives over the years and can't wait to get this.  Need to get on the stick!

[bluesoul]

 

You know, I've given burns of Brignola's "Baritone Madness" to several people over the years and told them to listen to the first track and hear these guys trying to play "Donna Lee" at the most insane tempo ever with the caveat that the pianist *fails* to do it. It's a "wart", but a wart on the most beautiful face. Why does every track have to be perfect to be enjoyed? It is times like this that I am glad that I am a listener and not a player. I am glad that I am not listening for every "mistake" on every track and giving grades for each solo. I am extremely glad that I can find incredible enjoyment where players like Iverson find disappointment.

I'd never heard this track before today.  

It's great.

 

[JSngry]

I mean, I hear time issues, and they seem to be on Holland.

Call me crazy, but isn't it Brignola playing the second bari solo? The one that "rescues us from total chaos thanks to his impeccable authority"?

 

Pepper plays a long time, perfect, almost like Coltrane or Rollins, clearly trying to teach everyone else what uptempo jazz is supposed to be.

#1 - I think that's Brignola, and

#2 - this hangup on "prime time" and "schooling" seems to me to be (unintentionally?) saying more about where Iverson's head is at about himself than it does anything actually happening on the records.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I mean, I hear time issues, and they seem to be on Holland.

Call me crazy, but isn't it Brignola playing the second bari solo? The one that "rescues us from total chaos thanks to his impeccable authority"?

 

Pepper plays a long time, perfect, almost like Coltrane or Rollins, clearly trying to teach everyone else what uptempo jazz is supposed to be.

#1 - I think that's Brignola, and

#2 - this hangup on "prime time" and "schooling" seems to me to be (unintentionally?) saying more about where Iverson's head is at about himself than it does anything actually happening on the records.

Yeah, Holland does seem to trip over a string or two and is behind the beat for a most of the intro, but it's not as obvious as Smith turning the beat over a couple of times during his solo. Who knows, maybe it was intentional?

Interesting to think that the second bari solo is Nick. I can hear it I suppose. I'm at work, do the liner notes mention the solo order for this song?

Edit: The LP liner notes are shown on line and it does appear that the second soloist is in fact Brignola. Jim gets a gold star!

Any way I look at it, they took this song at an insane tempo and it amazes me that they were able to pull it off at all. The first time I heard it, I laughed. It's comically fast. That poor drummer... He must've taken 5 after that take. I can't begin to imagine seeing a band try to do this live on a stage. Maybe James Carter would try it? He's a bit of showman at times.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Kevin Bresnahan

[gmonahan]

I've finally been able to order the set (been traveling, been busy) and look forward to it, especially the Nistico.  How can anyone who's listened to jazz for any real length of time not know Nistico?  The "Northwest Passage" solo on "Woody's Winners" should be enough to bring him to the attention of anyone who ever listened to any of Woody's post 2nd herd bands, but, well, whatever.

 

gregmo

[JSngry]

Also, listening to hear where Smith actually loses his place twice and am not hearing it...is it in his solo where this happens? I mean, the guy is scrambling, for sure, but his cadences all land in the right places, or at least he takes back up from them in the right place...I don't really know this record, haven't lived with it so...I don't know. I'm halfass YouTubin it to hear what's going on.

Kevin, you are probably the only guy who has ever referred to Roy Haynes as "that poor drummer"!

Seriously, though, the reaction towards what Iverson perceives to be Adams but is in fact Brignola suggest that maybe he's listening with his names instead of his ears, and when he hears "greatness" he just assumes that its his pre-existing hero. We've a;; been there, we've all had to "reluctantly accept" that, well, ok, maybe I've not been gving so-and-so adequate props after all, but in the context of this snidefest "review", hey, one more scoop of bullshit, this one on the house.

[jlhoots]

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

You decide who that is.

I'll buy the box, but Iverson is entitled to his thoughts.

 

[JSngry]

Yeah, well, if he wants to be a credible person of his visibility and assumed position, he should do some more math. Or less. I don't know.

No rule says you have to like Von Freeman, but if you can't come out and say that you don't, don't play the "I must not have heard the right Von" card. If you haven't...there's really no excuse for that. If you're a civilian, sure, but if you're a player writing as a player and keep on contemplating the whole "authenticity" thing then, no, there's no excuse. And if you have and really don't like it, then say so. You'll still be wrong, but at least you'll have full and proper ownership of your wrongness.

But, that's just the tip of the iceberg. I get all types of "New York Attitude" from that review, and, you know, later for all that. No, I take that back, EARLIER for all that.

[Daniel A]

Does Iverson explicitly say that Pepper has the second solo? There may be confusion, since the track (at least on the YT clip) starts with a intro solo.

I think I hear who's Pepper and to me it's the "best" solo. An enjoyable track, despite that it's a bit painful to hear the piano solo. Like the Giant Steps outtakes x100.

[bertrand]

I saw Iverson once in a trio and he did a preconcert talk in which he also displayed that arrogant NY attitude. Made a lot of statements that were incorrect, IIRC.

[JSngry]

Does Iverson explicitly say that Pepper has the second solo? There may be confusion, since the track (at least on the YT clip) starts with a intro solo.

I think I hear who's Pepper and to me it's the "best" solo. An enjoyable track, despite that it's a bit painful to hear the piano solo. Like the Giant Steps outtakes x100.

Looks like he's explicitly allowing that he got it wrong: http://dothemath.typepad.com/

It’s not fair to the box to open this review with the Salvador records, really, except that what the box does open with is even worse, a two-bari date featuring Nick Brignola and Pepper Adams. Derek Smith, Dave Holland, and Roy Haynes are the rhythm section. Jesus Christ, do they all go down with the ship on track one, “Donna Lee.” The tempo is very fast, and while Brignola at least keeps the form, Smith loses his place at least twice. Admittedly, Dave Holland and Roy Haynes are pretty ragged as well. Holland got better at this style, but in 1977 I don’t think he’d played with many musicians as authentically bebop as Roy Haynes. So it is up to Pepper Adams, who rescues us from total chaos thanks to his impeccable authority. Pepper plays a long time, perfect, almost like Coltrane or Rollins, clearly trying to teach everyone else what uptempo jazz is supposed to be. I always enjoy Adams, but his mastery is revealed as truly Olympian in this context. (Update: According to a certain source, I've mixed up the bari soloists! I'm not sure, I'm checking it out tonight. If so, I owe Nick Brignola a serious apology!)

Not sure who that source is, but I wish that they'd let him know that he is still calling Charles Davis Ricky Ford.

[Daniel A]

"According to a certain source, I've mixed up the bari soloists!"

Well, I think the "source" may very well be this very thread. 

[jlhoots]

I don't know.

I saw / heard The Bad Plus at The Village Vanguard & they were excellent. Did not detect New York bullshit. I'm looking forward to their concert with Joshua Redman in December. Already sold out at our provincial Albuquerque venue. Now I'm probably really in trouble for what I like.

[JSngry]

"According to a certain source, I've mixed up the bari soloists!"

Well, I think the "source" may very well be this very thread. 

If it was, the Charles Davis thing would have been addressed?

I don't know.

I saw / heard The Bad Plus at The Village Vanguard & they were excellent. Did not detect New York bullshit. I'm looking forward to their concert with Joshua Redman in December. Already sold out at our provincial Albuquerque venue. Now I'm probably really in trouble for what I like.

Seriously?

Writing a review and playing are not the same thing.

Writing a review from a player's perspective and getting it this wrong is unfortunate, but hell, it's not the same thing at all as making a gig, not even close.

[Niko]

"[update: Apparently not white, sorry Mr. Herbert!] "

 

guess he read this thread but wasn't really interested...

(my first reaction to this correction was "herbert died before I was born so it sounds a bit disrespectful", but my english isn't good enough for this type of judgement after all)