Jump to content

New Heretical Statement re: Coltrane / Stitt


Peter Friedman

Recommended Posts

I read an article in Jazz Journal a couple of days ago by Steve Voce that referred to the Miles Davis 4 CD set of broadcasts from the Paris - Olympia.

The first 2 CDs were from March 21,1960 with Coltrane on tenor. The other 2 CDs are from October 11,1960 and have Sonny Stitt in place of Trane. What I found of particular interest is that the article stated that" today Sonny's work sounds much fresher and more vibrant than Trane's of the same period."

That evaluation stuck me very much in opposition to the generally accepted viewpoint. So I located the set ( that I have not listed to in quite a few years) on my shelf , and played 1 CD with Coltrane and 1 CD with Stitt. I was surprised to find that I was in full agreement with the point made in the article.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 57
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I've not heard the set you speak of, but I have heard some Davis/'Trane music from that tour. Let's face it, 'Trane was not always easy to listen to, perhaps more often than not. He almost always challenges listeners. Sometimes I am open to that; other times I need the more predictable and even comforting playing of Stitt. (And I'm not putting Stitt down by saying that - he was a GREAT and often inventive player, IMO). Plus my understanding is that 'Trane was in a sour mood on that tour (didn't want to be there), and his mood seemed to be reflected in his playing.

Edited by John Tapscott
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the one thing I've said for years is that MILES is on fire on those later Swedish dates with Sonny. For that reason especially, I really like them more than the earlier dates (with Trane).

I'm not always feelin' Trane with Miles live on those 1960's dates, but a lot of it is whether I'm in the right mood for that kind of Trane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think by then Trane was not happy to be on tour with the Davis group, and when he soloed he pretty much did his own thing, which did not necessarily work well with what the rest of the band were doing. By this time "Giant Steps" was already out, and he would soon record "My Favorite Things", which are in a different vein altogether than what the MD group was playing at the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Sour" is not the right adjective as much as "impatient"...no, he didn't want to do the tour, but that was because he was ready to get going with his own band and his own ideas. Miles money-whipped him into doing it. Paris was the first stop on the tour iirc, and Paris is where it all came exploding out, some ideas that we'd not again hear from Trane regularly until the watershed year of 1965. I've heard all the extant recordings from that tour (I think...) and nothing goes there like this Paris gig. It's like he vented that one night and then went on about the professional-ness of making The Miles Gig for the rest of the tour (and believe me, hearing the whole tour puts this one night into a really sharper perspective). Not that he wasn't still pushing it, just not like that, that is a massive wormwhole of sound where you literally hear the future of the music, Trane-style, before it actually happened. Pretty amazing from the quantum aspect of things.

Stitt's fine, and anybody who prefers that to Trane, hey, no worries, different strokes. But subjectivity aside, objectively, Trane/Miles Paris 1960, that is an amazing document of one man setting the agenda for the rest of his life, really, just as soon as he gets this gig over with and could get home and put the rubber to the road. It's as close to a document of instantaneous real time paradigm shift as anything I've heard, anywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm glad we have the Stitt stuff - it's always nice to have variety. But put me on team Coltrane.

Yep.

But what I like about the tour with Stitt is how Miles stepped it up on those dates - as if, since Coltrane wasn't there to set off fireworks, Miles decided he'd better do it himself. At least that's what I remember, but I admit that I haven't spun any of the Stitt tour for awhile. Every time I walk over to that shelf, my hand automatically reaches for one of the dates with Coltrane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea, Miles didn't seem too happy with what Coltrane was playing on the 1960s tour. He stated in his autobiography that Trane was in another world, didn't speak much with the band, and didn't play in an integrated way with the band.

That may be true, but what Trane played on that tour was amazing, revolutionary, incredible....maybe some his best work on record, as others have noted.

Comparing that with what Stitt played with the band in the fall seems like apples and oranges to me. Why even compare it? It was so different. Stitt fit into that band just fine but....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea, Miles didn't seem too happy with what Coltrane was playing on the 1960s tour. He stated in his autobiography that Trane was in another world, didn't speak much with the band, and didn't play in an integrated way with the band.

That may be true, but what Trane played on that tour was amazing, revolutionary, incredible....maybe some his best work on record, as others have noted.

Comparing that with what Stitt played with the band in the fall seems like apples and oranges to me. Why even compare it? It was so different. Stitt fit into that band just fine but....

:tup

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Long time since I heard these recordings and I no longer own them, but I felt Coltrane's contributions did not make that much sense, didn't fit the music, and even seemed intended to irritate the bandleader and the audience, which they did.

I tend to share this opinion about Coltrane's contributions on this recording. While somewhat interesting to hear him in this context, they just don"t fit well

with the tunes and group.

On the other hand I love Trane's playing with Miles on the various Columbia recordings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also not getting the "intended to irritate" conclusion...that's driving in the same lane used to take the Anti-Jazz exit, and is that still on the map/GPS? My tax dollars NOT at work, then.

For the record, the French audience was far from universally "irritated". Marchel Ivery was actually there that night (he was in the army, stationed in or around Paris), as was Brownie IIRC, and yes, some people were pissed. But many were thrilled.

As far as his bandmates, I imagine they were scared shitless, which would not be an inappropriate reaction. It was, and remains, some scaryass playing. But it was not a stunt, nor was it a snub. It was Coltrane throwing down, full force, where he was going to go, period.

Whatever Miles said after the fact, let's look at the fact that after Trane left, Miles went through a bunch of people who player "regular" and was unhappy with them all until he went to Sam Rivers, with whom he was still unhappy, and George Coleman, with whom he was at least not unhappy, and then finally Wayne, and, oh, ok, there it was, again, finally.

So if the point being implied is that Trane was simply playing, and therefore behaving, like a petulant child on this gig, then I'm calling bullshit, and calling it collect. This was the John Coltrane playing with Miles Davis Quintet, not the Ralph Marterie Orchestra, or some such, "knowing your place" was not part of the deal, not like that, and even if it was, Coltrane knew his place, and occupied it proudly and onwardly. There are no epidurals in real time music, sometimes that shit is gonna hurt as it rips you open, sorry.

"Professionalism"? Is that the issue? Hell, Miles missed a gig and Trane played the set without him. Problem, officer?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...