Sonny Rollins blindfold test

[AllenLowe]

1) I'm with Leeway on most of this

2) let me emphasize that I am not saying Sonny is/was under any obligation to do anything or play with any particular musicians; this however, does not mean he made good artistic choices. We don't have the right to demand anything of him, but once he puts it out there we have the right to judge it.

3) and they are sock puppets, largely. And like all socks they need changing.

Edited December 16, 2014 by AllenLowe

[Milestones]

Ok, how many sock puppets are on Sonny Rollins + 3 (1996), and how artistically poor is this record?

Edited December 16, 2014 by Milestones

[Mark Stryker]

Told myself I wouldn't get sucked into this debate and I won't, but the mention of "Sonny Rollins + 3" -- maybe the late-period Rollins record I listen to most -- prompts me to note that it's a pretty fantastic record on any scale you want to employ and in particular Sonny plays the hell out of "I've Never Been in Love Before" with Tommy Flanagan, Bob Cranshaw and Al Foster behind him. Can't locate a link, but it's worth hearing, even if you generally do not warm to late Sonny. It might not change anyone's overall attitude (and I'm ok with that) but it shouldn't be ignored either.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Mark Stryker

[Leeway]

Re: Rollins +3: The title of this album obviously intends to hearken back to "Sonny Rollins Plus 4," with

Sonny Rollins – tenor saxophone

Clifford Brown – trumpet

Max Roach – drums

Richie Powell – piano

George Morrow – bass

Now, does anyone really want to compare that to "Plus 3"?

Sonny Rollins: tenor saxophone

Bob Cranshaw: electric bass

Stephen Scott: piano (tracks 3 & 5)

Jack DeJohnette: drums (tracks 3 & 5)

Tommy Flanagan: piano (tracks 1, 2, 4, 6 & 7)

Al Foster: drums (tracks 1, 2, 4, 6 & 7)

I hope not. I don't rate that congerie of musicians very high. But even given the (isolated) accomplishment of "Plus 3" that is a sparse record for such a long period of time. Is that really the best Rollins can do?

[Justin V]

Re: Rollins +3: The title of this album obviously intends to hearken back to "Sonny Rollins Plus 4," with

Sonny Rollins – tenor saxophone

Clifford Brown – trumpet

Max Roach – drums

Richie Powell – piano

George Morrow – bass

Now, does anyone really want to compare that to "Plus 3"?

Sonny Rollins: tenor saxophone

Bob Cranshaw: electric bass

Stephen Scott: piano (tracks 3 & 5)

Jack DeJohnette: drums (tracks 3 & 5)

Tommy Flanagan: piano (tracks 1, 2, 4, 6 & 7)

Al Foster: drums (tracks 1, 2, 4, 6 & 7)

I hope not. I don't rate that congerie of musicians very high. But even given the (isolated) accomplishment of "Plus 3" that is a sparse record for such a long period of time. Is that really the best Rollins can do?

I'm not very familiar with Stephen Scott's work, but he's worked with Sonny, Ron Carter, Frank Foster, Joe Henderson, Freddie Hubbard, Betty Carter and many other notable musicians, so his resume speaks for itself. If you don't rate Tommy Flanagan, Jack DeJohnette, Al Foster and Bob Cranshaw very highly, I don't know what to say to you.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Justin V

[Larry Kart]

Hey -- both Jim Sangrey and I are moderators, and I can turn anyone here into ashes if I feel like it.

[JSngry]

It's art first, commerce second.

Well, see, that's a fan's perspective, a consumer's wish/demands list. Make mine ART dammit, or don't make it at all.

Just my opinion, but it seems to me that in Perfect Sonny Rollins World, every day would be wake up, eat, exercise, practice all day, maybe eat again, practice some more, then call it a day, unwind a little, and then go to bed. Everything else would just be a distraction form that. I don't get the impression that Sonny Rollins lives to be The Perpetual Artist Of Our Time, or The Perpetual Macro-Curious Cat, or anything "art"-y like that. I think he just lives to get up in the morning and practice all day. When gigs come, do them, and then get pack home to practice some more. But what is the real "art" of Sonny Rollins? To keep playing that saxophone in the way he feels the need to play it. Everything else is just business.

The real "art" here would be, how much of the time would Sonny Rollins be able to inhabit Perfect Sonny Rollins World, and I'd say he's done about as good a job under the circumstances as possible as anybody. This whole angsty thing about Sonny Rollins failing his art and all that, that's funny, really, because in this paradigm, the "artist" is at once supposed to care only about their "art", in which case, why should they give a flying fuck what anybody thinks other than themselves, and yet feel wounded into shame or some such when the "art lovers" get to feeling betrayed and shit. Like, ok, what's it gonna be - artist serves own needs or artist serves fanbase needs?

Sure sounds like the negotiating of commerce to me!

I would challenge any/all people, fans or otherwise - be your own damn artist, first and foremost. Don't be dependent on somebody else to give it to you, because somebody else might not always give two shits what you want, at least not in all things at all times at any given moment. So handle that part of it yourself.

Hey -- both Jim Sangrey and I are moderators, and I can turn anyone here into ashes if I feel like it.

And I can see for miles and miles, so if I let the ashes keep burning, it won't be because the park ranger didn't see the fire!.

[JSngry]

And this is funny - I was out earlier today running errands and decided to stop at Barnes & Noble for a copy of this DB with this BFT in it...well..I found Wax Poetics, decided to get a copy of that, it's usually fun, saw a copy of Jazz Times with Jaime Cullem (whoever he is) on the cover and said...uh, ok, might as well, and then found the last copy of DB, turned to the back page (I still remember that much about them) and lo and be-hold, the BFTestee was Ron Carter!!!!

So, not a difficult decision at all, but them all three back on the self and walked out empty handed. Feel like I dodge a bullet, really with that Jazz Times thing, I mean, that Jaime Cullen kid looked really dodgy. And Blondie was on the cover of WP, I mean,,,I read all the Blondie shit I needed to read in Trouser Press back in the day, and I don't care what Ron Carter has to say about Sam Jones, I already know what I think about Sam Jones, so all in all, money saved to be better, or at least different, spent elsewhere.

[Leeway]

It's art first, commerce second.

Make mine ART dammit, or don't make it at all.

That's going on a bumper sticker on my car!

[JSngry]

So, what kind of a car we drivin' with that bumper sticker on it?

[mjazzg]

You definitely don't want Jamie Cullum in your car or even on your bumper. Apologies from UK for exporting him

[soulpope]

as i already outed myself being a sucker reg acoustic bass players, it always left me wondering why rollins stopped using these end of the sixties permanently and IMO robbed himself (aka his music) of a natural fundament......

[Leeway]

So, what kind of a car we drivin' with that bumper sticker on it?

A "People's Car"

The "ultimate driving machine" (like Sonny I guess), had to be retired

[JSngry]

I'm one of those guys that likes to keep a car until it pretty much drops, if it runs, let it be ugly. My wife would like a new car ever few years, but neither of us like paying for something we already have that does what we want it to do. So we do things like get scratches and other cosmetic things repaired on her car, and let mine be what time makes of it. Either way, we get to where we want to be, which as we grow older we are trying to narrow the gap between where we need to be and where we want to be. As a telecommuter, I'm doin' alright in that regard, thanks for asking.

Now," car people" look at us with scorn and, occasionally abuse, because, you know, how can you drive THAT, better ride, better styling, better performance, FEATURES!, blahblahblah, and when I say anything at all to them, I tend to make it something along the lines of a polite-ish "drive your own damn car, bitch", something like that (because I use "bitch" in a non-gender specific manner, it's the way to go, trust me). Because, you know, drive your own damn car.

Now, if I was always bitching and moaning about how I gotta drive this raggedyass car around all the time and all that, then ok, get another car bitch (directed towards myself). But I'm not, so when somebody suggest to me that I should be, or would be better off at least trying one, well, I'm not hearing that, because, what is life, anyway, an ongoing chance to be the perpetual target, make the bull's eye bigger and redder, please, tell me what I "need" to be doing?

So I'm just saying, if a man (or woman) likes the car that he (or she) is driving, if they ain't complaining about it, why should I? Everybody drive their own damn car to wherever it is they going to.

[Larry Kart]

While I agree with a lot of what Jim has said on this thread, I can't buy this one:

"I would challenge any/all people, fans or otherwise -- be your own damn artist, first and foremost. Don't be dependent on somebody else to give it to you, because somebody else might not always give two shits what you want, at least not in all things at all times at any given moment. So handle that part of it yourself."

Art is not just a trade off -- a matter of person X giving something of value to persons Y, who then receive it. It also has lot to do with the artist's encounter with the sometimes mysterious daunting thrilling stuff that he/she is actually making and with the long history of mysterious daunting thrilling made things and their various fates and meanings that stretches back down the corridors of time. To "be your own artist" in the sense that Jim seems to be talking about ("Don't be dependent on somebody else to give it to you, because somebody else might not always give two shits what you want, at least not in all things at all times at any given moment. So handle that part of it yourself") sounds kind of like a script for what used to be called "self-gratification."

[johnblitweiler]

I would challenge any/all people, fans or otherwise - be your own damn artist, first and foremost. Don't be dependent on somebody else to give it to you, because somebody else might not always give two shits what you want, at least not in all things at all times at any given moment. So handle that part of it yourself.

Jim gets it right. All an artist can do is to try to get his work where people can hear / see / feel it. If it communicates on some level with someone, great. If not, still be yourself. Think of Cecil Taylor, Herbie Nichols, Emily Dickinson, etc.

[JSngry]

It's only thrilling mysterious daunting until it's not. That's when the real work begins, and that's where a lot of people decide to look elsewhere, for people who don't care to do that much work. Shared vs vicarious is very much a matter of an honest trade-off vs peeking in undetected and uninvolved.

I'm no paragon of virtue in this regard, I have at different times done the work and at other times not wanted to do it, and haven't. I can tell you this, though - the more I do the work myself, the less I care about what somebody else is doing. Not enough time.

Not that this is not just about "playing", it's about anything, really. Lost time not found, etc. Sonny Rollins "betrays" his art, or whatever from whoever. Fuck it then, move on. Plenty of other landing spots, tragedy not in Sonny's world if he's got his life working how he prefers it to work, tragedy (such as it is) in the mourners who keep knocking at the door waiting for somebody else to answer.

You really want somebody else to answer, shit, that's easy - knock at somebody else's door. Not complicated. Just not complicated. Otherwise, it's still not any more complicated than anything else involving people making decisions for themselves that you don't like. Figure it out or...leave it alone. But jesus, don't just stand there ringing the doorbell waiting for somebody else to answer. That's kinda...pathetic?

[Milestones]

I'm glad I started this thread. The overall quality of discussion was quite good and interesting--certainly outweighing the occasional unfair or off-the-wall comment.

[JSngry]

Your Honor, I'll present this as evidence for both the prosecution and the defense:

Yes, an old man playing over some sock puppets not really interacting with them at all, just free association with no concern for arc or anything. Basically an isolated old man rambling out loud, wherever the impulse takes him, he goes there and then stops when it does.

Now the question is this - does what the delightful sane as hell insanity of where the inspiration leads him make up for the marking time that occurs when it doesn't?

If it does, then hey, Sonny Rollins!

And if it doesn't, well hey, Sonny Rollins.

I would submit though, that what you get when you get it is something that you will not find anywhere else, so still - Sonny Rollins. What if anything that's gonna be worth to you, that's entirely up to you.

And if it's not worth too much of anything, don't blame the rambling old man. He's more than happy this way. You gonna fuck with a happy old man?

[Steve Reynolds]

I'd rather see and hear great tenor players playing with great musicians.

I see and hear regularly. I just saw one last weekend. A great tenor man at his peak. Ignore or demean at your own peril or loss.

I refuse to deify. I believe I see and hear musicians (including tenor players) who are as great as the legends - alive or dead.

Young or Old

Blue Winter, baby

[JSngry]

Livin' the dream!

[Steve Reynolds]

Livin' the dream!

Exactly

The *great* Ray Anderson this Sunday with the Pocket Brass Band

Another living legend - and one who refuses to cruise

[JSngry]

Cruise!

[Larry Kart]

I would challenge any/all people, fans or otherwise - be your own damn artist, first and foremost. Don't be dependent on somebody else to give it to you, because somebody else might not always give two shits what you want, at least not in all things at all times at any given moment. So handle that part of it yourself.

Jim gets it right. All an artist can do is to try to get his work where people can hear / see / feel it. If it communicates on some level with someone, great. If not, still be yourself. Think of Cecil Taylor, Herbie Nichols, Emily Dickinson, etc.

Maybe the point I was trying to make in post #65 doesn't make that much sense, but let me try again. The work has to be made, then communicated/received, put out "where people can hear / see / feel it." I assume that your examples -- Cecil Taylor, Herbie Nichols, Emily Dickinson -- were chosen because they were strikingly themselves as artists in situations of significant indifference on the part of world at large and, in Dickinson's case, withdrawal from the world at large. What none of them withdrew from, though, were the demands of the art they were making/trying to make. How those examples mean that "any/all people ... should be our own damn artist" I have no idea.

[uli]

Cruise!

if that's what they call it, i like cruising. now playing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9HvBaUlTY

Edited December 17, 2014 by uli