xybert

Ornette Coleman, New Vocabulary

203 posts in this topic

Hmmmm....I was able to add it - the CD - to my cart just now...where do you run up against the "Sold Out" notice?

fwiw, a buddy of mine got the DL, and it comes with liners/credits/etc. Sparse, but actually more "presence" than in the CD package.

Well, that was a couple of months ago ... which makes it even weirder.

The LP doesn't exactly have lots of info either.

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I got this directly from the label. It will never be close to my favorite Ornette album but it's a good record. The label looks musician owned, and one of their releases looks to be a solo percussion album which the artist claims is fairly unique in jazz or any discography. What can I say? They're young. They're unfamiliar with great records by Jerome Cooper, Andrew Cyrille, Milford Graves, Max Roach, to name just a few. They'll learn.

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Yeah, they're lame. I would assume that they took too long to pay for their first order so the label said "fuck 'em." The CDR thing is nausea-inducing.


Also, I'm told that back in the day Billy Bang used to pass out matchbooks with his name, number and an image of his mug on them. Would love to have that bit of ephemera.

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Although I kind of feel like the last kid in the neighborhood to get a bike, I received my CD from the label yesterday and have listened to it three times. As always, it's so good to hear new Ornette. This is only the second new release from Ornette since I started listening to jazz in 2001 or 2002; like Sound Grammar, it's an album that lives up to the excitement generated by its release. I'll be listening to New Vocabulary often.

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Interesting. Perhaps this goes with the recording being available somewhat under the radar.

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What's more interesting to me than the bootleg is that Denardo was appointed Ornette's legal guardian in 2013, which seems to indicate that Ornette has experienced difficulty in managing his own affairs. He is 85 and there are a lot of people out there who would seize on an opportunity to take advantage of him. Given what happened to Cecil Taylor and the Kyoto Prize, it is probably for the best. However, I hope it does not mean that he is no longer able to perform before audiences.

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Usual DMG crabbiness aside, I am glancing side-eyed at this "label". I don't mean to suggest that Ornette is not being properly compensated, as it seems he is, but everything else about this weirds me out. Seems like a whole lot of bullshit.

Looks like colinmce saw this coming.

Well it certainly takes the shine off the release now i know that Ornette/Denardo didn't give approval

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Looking at the Ornette discography included in Soapsuds, Soapsuds, I see such notable works as Live At The Hillcrest Club, Coleman Classics, Vol 1, To Whom Keeps A Record, Town Hall Concert 1962, Chapaqua Suite, The Great London Concert, and Friends & Neighbors being listed as "unauthorized". And since then, haven't such claims been the delay behind CD issues of Ornette At 12? Some of these claims I can see as legit, but I've always been like, Friends & Neighbors, Flying Dutchman just up and booted Ornette, Bob Theile let that happen? That doesn't seem quite right, must be more to the story, at least something more.

The sessions were recorded in 2009, Denardo was appointed guardianship in 2013 (but iirc had been functioning as Ornette's manager long before that). everybody's based out of NYC, correct?, seems like an extremely ballsy move to flat-out boot something in this much of an "in your face" manner, literally in their faces, unless they thought they had some ground to stand on. I mean, maybe they are that stupid, but they have a label with other artists on it, and as much as a "one off" this is relative to the rest of the label...what, are they suicidal?

Very much looking forward to the defense's claims, whether it includes some kind of verbal agreement and/or passage of some amount of cash, and whether or not there will be a settlement before there is a verdict. Also wondering if this thing has sold a bit better than expected...I would think that perhaps it has, as it is a damn good record. If it turns out that it was actually made and released under completely duplicitous circumstances, I would urge everybody who has a copy to burn 100 more and to pass them out on street corners, for free as a public service, it's that much worth hearing.

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oh, wow - interesting development, to say the least ... but yeah, I described my impression of the label as well, and "professional" is not what they seem like ...

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There were some red flags: the under-the-radar release, the delay between recording and release, lack of publishing and other info, the fact some tracks sounded like Ornette's sax had been pasted on to a backing track. I heard third-hand gossip that Ornette's camp didn't want this released, but when others were told there was an album of new Ornette, the response was "hell yeah--release it." That being said, it's a highly enjoyable release.

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If this is a simple case of them releasing it without Ornette's (or Denardo's, it seems) permission then this really does explain a lot. It took them years to get the album out; i wonder what went on behind the scenes? You can really go down the rabbit hole of what Jim's saying above, there's so many different angles. My head is practically exploding with speculations. On the subject of "if they 100% didn't have permission why would they be so suicidal as to proceed": I could definitely see it seeming like a good idea at the time. I had no idea they (label or musicians) existed before this: being associated with Ornette they'll effectively go down in history whatever the legal outcome is. I guess it depends on how much they had to lose, which maybe wasn't much. Either way, they've cemented their place in jazz history.

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I'm wondering why Ornette's camp knew about it beforehand and didn't bring the lawyer boom then, or at least the threat of it...and who the others were who were saying "go ahead and release it". If Denardo is a better businessman than Ornette, what does that mean, exactly?

But if the label guys got a threat beforehand and thought it was just an empty dare, their bluff has been called. Now let's see what their story is.

And...did Adam Holzman get paid, or at least give permission?

If this whole thing ends up being some variant of the whole "music belongs to everybody, money destroys art" line, I'm gonna puke, and all the idealistic artists who say that stuff and think that anything else is gonna happen, hey. If you want it to be free, make it free. Otherwise, everybody just needs to shut up about all that.

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Could it be that Ornette vaguely gave his permission, but didn't fly it by Denardo first?

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I thought I threw up a warning sign earlier, but I guess I wasn't specific enough.

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A press release for a lawsuit. Game on.

I do not believe that story "exactly" because of this:

The complaint further alleges that:

• An individual not recorded at the sessions is credited as having participated
• Music was added to the recordings after the fact

I mean, really? Seriously? What kind of idiot is going to be outraged by that at face value? I'll be outraged at most records from the last half-century, then, without even listening to them. There's some "manufactured outrage", as they say.

I still have a hard time believing that anybody so small would be so stupid/arrogant as to openly fuck over somebody of Ornette's stature...the trumpet player's with Antibalas, right? He's got to have a least some sense, probably? And what about Adam Holzman,where is he in all of this? He's a known quantity (and the son of Jac Holzman, iirc?). Are these motherfuckers THAT clueless?

Are musicians that sociopathic about the business/industry? Could be?

I don't see where they have any leverage at this point, so withdraw the release, settle up, and now we have a "collector's item". I'll be rich when I die, so kill me now.

Funny thing, though, everybody I have played the record for, everybody, has really dug it. So, whatever the business is/shows itself as being, musical point made, hello 21st Century Herman Lubinsky, if only for this one quick minute.

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This seemed weird and mildly off-putting from the get-go.

If the following is true, then some of our suspicions were correct and this is a bullshit move. That quick OOP status seems to have meant something fishy was going on.

Years after making the recordings of Coleman's teaching sessions, McLean asked if he could release them. Coleman denied the request both directly and through his attorney and asked that the material be turned over to him. McLean instead released the recordings, forcing Coleman to seek legal recourse.

Edited by clifford_thornton

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If it is a bullshit move, then it is a bullshit move of epic kill your career and forever be known as The Guys Who Fucked Ornette proportion.

That is either totally insane (literally) or else they've gotten some kind of "hey, just do it, you'll be ok" reinforcement at some level they must have taken pretty damn seriously, either out of ballsy naivite or ballsy certainty that the promise would hold up.

Gotta be more to the story, and no matter what it is, it's probably unsettling as hell.

Still and all, great record. Looking like one of the all-time great moral/business "miscalculations", but great record anyway. Probably better than this upcoming legit tribute album with Patti Smith is gonna be, even with Sonny Rollins (disclaimer - Patti Smith has always meant nothing to me. Like Elvis, I know she's a hero to some, but she never meant shit to me).

Has Adam Holzman filed a lawsuit yet?

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From NPR :

In an email to NPR late Wednesday afternoon, Ziv wrote, "New Vocabulary is a collaborative, joint work by professional musicians Jordan McLean, Amir Ziv, and Ornette Coleman, made with the willing involvement of each artist. The album is the end result of multiple deliberate and dedicated recording sessions done with the willing participation and consent of Mr. Coleman and the other performers. Any suggestion to the contrary is unfounded and we deny any allegations of wrongdoing. For any further comment, we refer you to our attorney Justin S. Stern at Frigon Maher & Stern LLP."

Another story, from the Fort Worth Star Telegram: http://www.star-telegram.com/entertainment/arts-culture/article21712986.html

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So would it violate the board rules to openly request a burn of this :) :) :)

Bertrand.

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Here's an open question, from someone who hasn't heard (and has no desire to hear) the album: The Jazz Times article states that these are recordings of teaching sessions, much like someone leaving a tape recorder on a table while the session is in progress. Ziv's response says "The album is the end result of multiple deliberate and dedicated recording sessions". Does the album sound like a homemade recording or more professional?

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If it is a bullshit move, then it is a bullshit move of epic kill your career and forever be known as The Guys Who Fucked Ornette proportion.

That is either totally insane (literally) or else they've gotten some kind of "hey, just do it, you'll be ok" reinforcement at some level they must have taken pretty damn seriously, either out of ballsy naivite or ballsy certainty that the promise would hold up.

Gotta be more to the story, and no matter what it is, it's probably unsettling as hell.

Still and all, great record. Looking like one of the all-time great moral/business "miscalculations", but great record anyway. Probably better than this upcoming legit tribute album with Patti Smith is gonna be, even with Sonny Rollins (disclaimer - Patti Smith has always meant nothing to me. Like Elvis, I know she's a hero to some, but she never meant shit to me).

Has Adam Holzman filed a lawsuit yet?

Off topic I guess, but what's wrong with Patti Smith?

Just curious.

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Given Ornette's past pension to demand proper compensation for his work, I lean towards Ornette not authorizing this as a release.

There is obviously some form of deceptive marketing by the label if you can purchase the 192/24 Studio Masters, but these were indeed impromptu/teaching sessions and not actual studio sessions. And there are handheld recorders that record in 192/24 and sound really good, which I have a feeling these probably are.

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