I sure hope they didn't bury the guitar with Django.

[Hardbopjazz]

[Big Beat Steve]

According to a lot of reports indeed they did ...

In the book "Django Reinhardt - Swing de Paris" they say that a"symbolic guitar" was placed on the coffin to be buried with him.

Is this the "symbolic guitar"?

At any rate, according to gypsy tradition, the belongings of the deceased would be burnt after his death, and so it happened with Django Reinhardt's belongings too. According to history a lot of privately recorded tapes were burnt along with the other objects, so it would have been surprising if his guitar(s?) had been spared.

[flat5]

Zero cheers for tradition.

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, who are we to judge about strictly private and personal cases like these that do not affect any third parties or outsiders and do not force anything on these third parties?

Remember how much has been thrown away elsewhere ON PURPOSE for much, much more mundane reasons that have got nothing to at all with cultural traditions (however odd these cultural traditions may appear to be). Particularly in the name of "consumerism" long before such a term was even coined.

A case in point, starting with non-commercially recorded tapes (potentially comparable to those mentioned in my initial post): All those tapes of live music shows (either radio or TV) that used to exist at most major radio/TV organzations for a long time, only to be erased and/or dumped before any collectors or persons truly interested in the musical contents could lay their hand on them and save them for posterity (e.g. at BBC - ask the English around here ...). Now if the (alleged) public purveyors of culture through the (public) media don't see fit to treat those cultural documents with the respect due, why should any individuals be expected to do so?

Edited January 27, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[gmonahan]

Well, who are we to judge about strictly private and personal cases like these that do not affect any third parties or outsiders and do not force anything on these third parties?

Remember how much has been thrown away elsewhere ON PURPOSE for much, much more mundane reasons that have got nothing to at all with cultural traditions (however odd these cultural traditions may appear to be). Particularly in the name of "consumerism" long before such a term was even coined.

A case in point, starting with non-commercially recorded tapes (potentially comparable to those mentioned in my initial post): All those tapes of live music shows (either radio or TV) that used to exist at most major radio/TV organzations for a long time, only to be erased and/or dumped before any collectors or persons truly interested in the musical contents could lay their hand on them and save them for posterity (e.g. at BBC - ask the English around here ...). Now if the (alleged) public purveyors of culture through the (public) media don't see fit to treat those cultural documents with the respect due, why should any individuals be expected to do so?

Two stupids don't make a smart Steve!

gregmo

[Cyril]

This was not his only guitar....And yes, one of Django`s guitars was buried with him. The Selmer #503 (aka the 'small mouth') is hanging in the Cité de la Musique in Paris. (Django solely played acoustic

Selmer guitars during his entire career).

I've heard Barney Kessel owned one of Django Reinhardt's guitars, Barney had problems playing chords on it....

[Ted O'Reilly]

This was not his only guitar....And yes, one of Django`s guitars was buried with him. The Selmer #503 (aka the 'small mouth') is hanging in the Cité de la Musique in Paris. (Django solely played acoustic

Selmer guitars during his entire career).

I've heard Barney Kessel owned one of Django Reinhardt's guitars, Barney had problems playing chords on it....

Barney told me that, too...

[jazzbo]

Just a note to add that Django certainly played electric guitars as well and I'm not sure they were all Selmers equipped with pickups. . . .

[Jim R]

Good point, Lon. I almost posted something to the effect that "Django's guitars" is a bit vague. Some he owned, some he borrowed (not unlike a number of other great musicians).

[Big Beat Steve]

Selmer-Maccaferri, to give the more exact and descriptive name. Not to be confused with other lines that went by the Selmer name.

@Greg M:

I am not normally one to be too lenient with what comes under the general excuse of "cultural" traditions or peculiarities (particularly since this notion is VERY abused today in many areas of everyday life - yes, highly political, I know ... ) but in cases like the one described in my initial post I still feel it is not for ANYONE outside the community of those who belong to that community to pass judgment. This is a strictly personal and intra-family thing that was and is ONLY for them to decide.

I regret that loss of documents of art too but I can understand the basic feelings that may have led to that tradition (if a person goes, he goes entirely) - as opposed to what heirs elsewhere (outside that community with its own traditions) throw out for no good reason at all; after all THESE heirs are not bound by any such tradition and beyond what really may be very personal objects that are for no one else to see they act out of a sheer could'nt-care-less attitude. Now would YOU like to see strangers indiscriminately sniff around your belongings when you bow out? Or assuming that - for whatever reasons - you make a will that specific belongings that you have are not to go anywhere else, would you appreciate it if your heirs do the exact opposite?

Edited January 28, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[ejp626]

... Or assuming that - for whatever reasons - you make a will that specific belongings that you have are not to go anywhere else, would you appreciate it if your heirs do the exact opposite?

I think it depends on the situation. While critics have said that the legend of Kafka wanting everything destroyed and left unpublished is somewhat overblown, most people think that Max Brod did the right thing and didn't carry out Kafka's wishes.

Lately there has been a huge kerfuffle over the Barnes Foundation and the eventual complete overturning of the provisions of his will.

I take a different view and that is people that expect others to follow their instructions -- for decades afterwards -- are unrealistic control freaks, trying to exercise control from beyond the grave. Clearly, having something burnt is a lot easier than setting up some perpetual estate, but quite frankly, if you want it done that badly, burn the stuff yourself before you die. Don't burden your heirs with this stuff and your demands. Let them deal with it as they see fit.

[Big Beat Steve]

... Or assuming that - for whatever reasons - you make a will that specific belongings that you have are not to go anywhere else, would you appreciate it if your heirs do the exact opposite?

Clearly, having something burnt is a lot easier than setting up some perpetual estate, but quite frankly, if you want it done that badly, burn the stuff yourself before you die. Don't burden your heirs with this stuff and your demands. Let them deal with it as they see fit.

Setting up some perpetual estate - yes, that would reek of being a control freak ... but clear instructions that this or that is DEFINITELY to be destroyed after one's' death and is NOT to go anywhere else, regrettable though it may be for others, well, they ought to be respected and fulfilled. Remember you cannot possibly do this in your lifetime because how many are out there who know exactly they have exactly one week or one month to go and then it's definitely going to be over (and in that case you likely will have other, more pressing things to take care of anyway)? So either you will have to start doing it yourself too long before you bow out (which is not what the intention could possibly be) or you will not have enough time (or health/stamina) left to do it yourself.

No, look at it any way you want - us outsiders peeking in on what someone else may have that we would oh so much like to enjoy after they're gone, we have no business peeking in there unless we formally are okayed to do so ...

Besides, let's not forget the context of the times: In that particular case of Django Reinhardt, even if that tradition of letting one's personal belongings go after the person has gone would not have existed and carried out to that extent, remember that we are talking about a period when Django may have won much acclaim from the general public and society, but the "manouches" at large probably very often still were marginalized in the "majority society" so what incentive could they possibly have had of turning over Django's items to non-"manouche" persons (i.e. "them", not "us") who'd probably make money from it that Django's heirs and family would not have seen much of?

[king ubu]

... Or assuming that - for whatever reasons - you make a will that specific belongings that you have are not to go anywhere else, would you appreciate it if your heirs do the exact opposite?

I think it depends on the situation. While critics have said that the legend of Kafka wanting everything destroyed and left unpublished is somewhat overblown, most people think that Max Brod did the right thing and didn't carry out Kafka's wishes.

Well, maybe he did just what Kafka wanted ...

[Cyril]

Just a note to add that Django certainly played electric guitars as well and I'm not sure they were all Selmers equipped with pickups. . . .

Of course, I never met Django...

But he played electric once, during his tour with Duke Ellington in the States, but it wasn't a success and he never played amplified again. Django used Selmer guitars, typical gypsy jazz instruments with an oval sound hole and very high action. The 'Modèle Jazz' ( changed to 'Modèle Django Reinhardt' later), made famous by Django Reinhardt. And the Selmer Maccaferri...

Edited January 28, 2015 by Cyril

[Niko]

"he never played amplified again"

this clearly contradicts what i have read (and hear)... here is a discography of his final years which differentiates between electric and acoustic guitars and claims that the 1950 Rome broadcasts and all recordings from 1952/53 are on electric guitar

[Big Beat Steve]

"he never played amplified again"

this clearly contradicts what i have read (and heard)... here is a discography of his final years which differentiates between electric and acoustic guitars and claims that the 1950 Rome broadcasts and all recordings from 1952/53 are on electric guitar

Exactly. Some time ago I listened to his post-war recordings made in Belgium and they do sound quite amplified/electrified to me (and certainly not for the worse ...).

Some French sources even describe him as a "fervent adept of the amplified guitar" following his 1946 stay in the USA.

[jazzbo]

Just a note to add that Django certainly played electric guitars as well and I'm not sure they were all Selmers equipped with pickups. . . .

Of course, I never met Django...

But he played electric once, during his tour with Duke Ellington in the States, but it wasn't a success and he never played amplified again. Django used Selmer guitars, typical gypsy jazz instruments with an oval sound hole and very high action. The 'Modèle Jazz' ( changed to 'Modèle Django Reinhardt' later), made famous by Django Reinhardt. And the Selmer Maccaferri...

I was under the impression that he played electric guitar after that tour with Duke. . . not exclusively, but some,

[Big Beat Steve]

He did. See the two preceding posts.

[jazzbo]

Hey, I wasn't talking to you.

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, I was talking to you.

(And if it helps building on preceding posts as the discusion advances, then ... why not? )

Edited January 28, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[jazzbo]

Of course! Just funning. Those posts above mine were written after I began writing mine, but I was interrupted before finishing my post. Such is my situation now. Constant interruptions! I'll get used to it one day.

[Big Beat Steve]

Sure ... no big deal overall.

Anyway, to get back on track, those late Django reordings really are worth exploring.

[jazzbo]

I agree, some fascinating music. We lost that man too young! (Not an uncommon occurrence in the world of jazz).

[king ubu]

there's this thematic (late works) compilation around ... I've not explored it any closer, as I went for the Frémeau intégrale, but for those who want to listen to some at budget price:

[danasgoodstuff]

There are days I think they should've buried all the guitars with him...then maybe people would listen to just how amazing he was, or not...