Jazz Books To Avoid (and some to seek out)

[sidewinder]

Ian Carr's 'Music Outside' is an essential primer for British jazz of the 1970s and Alan Robertson's Joe Harriott biography is also outstanding.

[BillF]

Ian Carr's 'Music Outside' is an essential primer for British jazz of the 1970s and Alan Robertson's Joe Harriott biography is also outstanding.

I certainly can speak for the Harriott biog.

Just a few weeks till this:

http://www.equinoxpub.com/home/long-shadow-little-giant-life-work-legacy-tubby-hayes-simon-spillett/

And Clark Tracey told me he's writing a biog of his Dad!

[sidewinder]

http://www.equinoxpub.com/home/long-shadow-little-giant-life-work-legacy-tubby-hayes-simon-spillett/

Just a few weeks till this:

And Clark Tracey told me he's writing a biog of his Dad!

Great news about the Stan Tracey book by Clark.

Will have my pre-order in for Simon S's book as well. With a film/documentary on the way for Tubby, great year for Tubb-ophiles.

[Larry Kart]

Chapter and verse on Schuller's erroneous transcriptions in "The Swing Era":

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/misunderstanding-in-blue-by-darcy-james-argue.html

Not to defend anyone's errors but weird to see that guy get so sooooOOOOO worked up, especially in the contexts of

1) Gunther Schuller's multifaceted career

2) a pretty long ass book

3) the vast room for potential error in the writing, editing, printing of any book...

3a) especially before computers

3b) though, paradoxically, older books generally have a far higher stand ardd of production, proofreading etc than contemporary ones

4) consider the errors that frequently in numerous composer's scores, as written, copied, published.

I'd no more defend Schuller en toto than I would, say, Dick Sudhalther but his (their's) contributions to music(ology) are substantial.

Pretty sure Richard Rodney Bennett orchestrated yet I await Darcy James Argue's trascriptions (choreography optional)--

I'd be more inclined to give Gunther a pass on his mis-transcriptions if it weren't for his lengthy (592 pages) book "The Compleat Conductor"

http://www.amazon.com/Compleat-Conductor-Gunther-Schuller-ebook/dp/B004Y4UTAE/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1424547281&sr=1-6&keywords=gunther+schuller

in which, in great detail, he rips a new asshole into virtually every conductor of note who ever lived for the crime of not following the score precisely. The only conductor who does follow the score precisely, according to Gunther? His initials are "GS." (This is not to say that Gunther is not an excellent conductor.)

P.S. You mean Robert Russell Bennett, not Richard Rodney Bennett.

[lipi]

This thread pleases me tremendously.

Avoid unless you want to tear your hair out and bash your head into a wall: Bernie Woods (an editor for Variety), "When the Music Stopped: The Big Band Era Remembered", a train wreck of a book. It's is truly, truly dreadful. Woods manages to make himself look like a total jerk at least twice on every page, and not in a fun way.

Do read (and what I'm currently finishing): Count Basie and Albert Murray, "Good Morning Blues", Basie's autobiography in a conversational "Hear Me Talkin' to Ya"-style. It's fun reading. (Which reminds me: everyone should read Shapiro and Hentoff's "Hear Me Talkin' to Ya".)

Just piling on to what people have already said: "Jazz Masters of the 20s" is great. Richard Hadlock is a good guy.

[Big Beat Steve]

Do read (and what I'm currently finishing): Count Basie and Albert Murray, "Good Morning Blues", Basie's autobiography in a conversational "Hear Me Talkin' to Ya"-style. It's fun reading. (Which reminds me: everyone should read Shapiro and Hentoff's "Hear Me Talkin' to Ya".)

Yes it's a nice book but I must admit one single protagonist's "conversational" autobiography can wear you out a bit if that protagonist is not THAT consistently articulate (no, I DON'T expect an autobiography to be as full of wit and entertainment as Terry Gibbs' "Good Vibes"; for example ). Though I am a huge fan of Basie's music I found this "conversational" style sometimes a bit distracting in the way it apparently has NOT been edited/honed out a bit for printing here because some phrases that Basie seems to like to fall back on make the contents sound a bit vague and repetitive more than once and the story at times just rambles on. And this although the contents MUST have seen some editing - by Mr Murray? - considering how little balance there is between the various phases of Basie's career. While the details of the early years are interesting I was a bit disappointed in the way part of his post-war story was rushed through, as if in an afterthought

[MomsMobley]

I'd be more inclined to give Gunther a pass on his mis-transcriptions if it weren't for his lengthy (592 pages) book "The Compleat Conductor"

http://www.amazon.com/Compleat-Conductor-Gunther-Schuller-ebook/dp/B004Y4UTAE/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1424547281&sr=1-6&keywords=gunther+schuller

in which, in great detail, he rips a new asshole into virtually every conductor of note who ever lived for the crime of not following the score precisely. The only conductor who does follow the score precisely, according to Gunther? His initials are "GS." (This is not to say that Gunther is not an excellent conductor.)

P.S. You mean Robert Russell Bennett, not Richard Rodney Bennett.

twice correct, thank you LK... I forgot-- willfully?-- the conductor book; thus Gunther made himself a target, so be it! I greatly enjoyed Norman del Mar "Anatomy of the Orchestra" however.

[lipi]

Do read (and what I'm currently finishing): Count Basie and Albert Murray, "Good Morning Blues", Basie's autobiography in a conversational "Hear Me Talkin' to Ya"-style. It's fun reading. (Which reminds me: everyone should read Shapiro and Hentoff's "Hear Me Talkin' to Ya".)

Yes it's a nice book but I must admit one single protagonist's "conversational" autobiography can wear you out a bit if that protagonist is not THAT consistently articulate (no, I DON'T expect an autobiography to be as full of wit and entertainment as Terry Gibbs' "Good Vibes"; for example ). Though I am a huge fan of Basie's music I found this "conversational" style sometimes a bit distracting in the way it apparently has NOT been edited/honed out a bit for printing here because some phrases that Basie seems to like to fall back on make the contents sound a bit vague and repetitive more than once and the story at times just rambles on. And this although the contents MUST have seen some editing - by Mr Murray? - considering how little balance there is between the various phases of Basie's career. While the details of the early years are interesting I was a bit disappointed in the way part of his post-war story was rushed through, as if in an afterthought

Yeah, I agree with almost all of that. I've been reading it in short bursts, so Basie's vague style won't get on my nerves. I didn't mind the post-war stuff getting short shrift, since I prefer the OT band. And one does wonder what Murray contributed. Perhaps he was the "research assistant" Basie keeps referring to?

[danasgoodstuff]

Zwerin's book offers extremely candid views of a number of jazz groups he played with (Claude Thornhill Orchestra, Maynard Ferguson Band, Orchestra USA, and the Earl Hines group tour of the former Soviet Union), and glimpses of unheralded musicians (Conrad Gozzo, Jimmy Ford, Budd Johnson) that are unavailable elsewhere.

He talks about his time with the jazz group Orchestra USA, and there's a great shot of Phil Woods changing his reed, while Eric Dolphy is seated next to him.

Zwerin talks about how John Lewis would take all the solos away from Dolphy, and give them to Phil.

Maybe Dolphy should have tried to fit the character of the music, rather than ram all his outside stuff into every solo.

Dolphy was upset when he eventually got the boot.

Considering that Lewis was one of the earliest "champions" of Ornette Coleman, I suppose that Dolphy could be forgiven for expecting different ears out of him than he got.

What's even funnier is Dolphy provides pretty much the only sustaining moments of that whole project and I'm generally a John Lewis "fan." Phuckin' Phil Woods on the other hand... from jazz hot to (mostly) jazz schlock in how many bars? much as i might enjoy most of those musicians elsewhere, Eric was the ONLY one there with the true temperament for Brecht/Weill, which demands far more than slick note spinning and odd bits of 'quirky' orchestration to convey.

For once, I just about totally agree with you re this Weill project and Dolphy's part therein.

[johnblitweiler]

For better or worse - who knows? - the Count Basie "autobiography" sure read like an Albert Murray book to me. As I recall Basie answered questions that Murray was likely to ask, and the frequently repeated assertion that the Ellington band was greater is certainly Murray's opinion. Murray could be an enchanting writer and the Basie story was definitely well written.

[romualdo]

Ian Carr's 'Music Outside' is an essential primer for British jazz of the 1970s and Alan Robertson's Joe Harriott biography is also outstanding.

I'd have to agree with the Harriott - have read it twice (1st & revised second editions)

Also dug the recent Twardzik (Bouncin' With Bartok) & Nichols (A Jazzist's Life) tomes

Currently reading Marcus Cornelius' Warne Marsh novel (Out Of Nowhere)

[BeBop]

Ian Carr's 'Music Outside' is an essential primer for British jazz of the 1970s and Alan Robertson's Joe Harriott biography is also outstanding.

I'd have to agree with the Harriott - have read it twice (1st & revised second editions)

Also dug the recent Twardzik (Bouncin' With Bartok) & Nichols (A Jazzist's Life) tomes

The Twardzik and the Nichols are the next two in my jazz reading queue. I suppose I could set the Harriott third.

[Larry Kart]

A post I made a few years back about the Chambers-Twardzik bio:

Chambers' main flaws are that sometimes he doesn't know when he doesn't know something (e.g. a reference to a piece's "harmonics" when he means its harmonies) and that he likes to make sweeping assertions (seemingly for their own sake) that are both wrong and odd (e.g. Pacific Jazz's failure for 40 years to release the adventurous 1957 chamber music date that Bob Zieff scored for Chet Baker "effectively kept Baker on a musical diet of ballads for the rest of his days"). If you're writing a book about Twardzik, you should know your Chet Baker, and no one who does could say such a thing (quite a few of Baker's post-1957 recordings were urgent in tempo and hard-boppish in style).

The book also includes one of the most amusing mis-transcriptions or typos I've ever seen. On p. 113, Chambers writes: "'I wasn't a bone-fried bopster, and Dick had outgrown it,' Bob Zieff told me."

What Zieff said undoubtedly was "I wasn't a bona fide bopster".... etc., though I suppose a fair number of bopsters were "bone-fried" at one time or another.

[BeBop]

A post I made a few years back about the Chambers-Twardzik bio:

...

The book also includes one of the most amusing mis-transcriptions or typos I've ever seen. On p. 113, Chambers writes: "'I wasn't a bone-fried bopster, and Dick had outgrown it,' Bob Zieff told me."

What Zieff said undoubtedly was "I wasn't a bona fide bopster".... etc., though I suppose a fair number of bopsters were "bone-fried" at one time or another.

I'm just fininshing up another book (fiction) that's all about bone-fried bopsters - Allen Hoey's Chasing the Dragon. Onward to Chambers/Twardzik. (Thanks for the capsule review.)

[romualdo]

A post I made a few years back about the Chambers-Twardzik bio:

Chambers' main flaws are that sometimes he doesn't know when he doesn't know something (e.g. a reference to a piece's "harmonics" when he means its harmonies) and that he likes to make sweeping assertions (seemingly for their own sake) that are both wrong and odd (e.g. Pacific Jazz's failure for 40 years to release the adventurous 1957 chamber music date that Bob Zieff scored for Chet Baker "effectively kept Baker on a musical diet of ballads for the rest of his days"). If you're writing a book about Twardzik, you should know your Chet Baker, and no one who does could say such a thing (quite a few of Baker's post-1957 recordings were urgent in tempo and hard-boppish in style).

The book also includes one of the most amusing mis-transcriptions or typos I've ever seen. On p. 113, Chambers writes: "'I wasn't a bone-fried bopster, and Dick had outgrown it,' Bob Zieff told me."

What Zieff said undoubtedly was "I wasn't a bona fide bopster".... etc., though I suppose a fair number of bopsters were "bone-fried" at one time or another.

I wonder if that was a direct quote from Zieff as it's italicised (was it misheard or did Zieff actually say that) - reading further down (4 lines to be exact) Chambers repeats the description, this time spelt correctly (bona-fide bopsters)

Maybe it's not a typo?

[Big Beat Steve]

I think the "problem" with the Chambers/Twardzik bio (which I enjoyed reading, BTW) is - Who ELSE would have been out there to tackle the subject and come up with the same amount of findings and "hits"? And no doubt some "misses" such as the ones quoted above will inevitably find their way in along the way. And there is BOUND to be someone out there who will be diligent and/or knowledgeable and/or sensitive enough to single them out. But does this invalidate the (overwhelming) "rest" of the book?

What would be the quota of errors that would be accepted before the majority of the readers with average "jazz fan" knowledge would - like a man - discard a book as unusable?

And would the errors be seen as equally important by everyone in the wider field of the targe readers' audience?

I remember the bio on Tommy Dorsey by Peter J. Levinson which I read a couple of years ago (not my no. 1 favorite swing-era jazzman for sure, but the bio was available really dirt cheap at the local Zweitausendeins shop so you just couldn't go wrong at that price). Well-written and insightful IMO and a good read. But then there came that swing-era expert (probably one who had witnessed the era, at last its tail end, in person) who - on some big band forum - gave a scathing listing of factual and interpretational errors in that book that really left little room for counterarguments. Not that the book was faulted in its entirety but it was good to see somebody did some fine-combing there to make you aware of those errors or oversights. But it just shows you always have to use a grain of salt. (Wish I had that listing of errors - for future reference - but unfortunately I did not copy it at the time and that post is long gone)

Yet I wonder how many of those who would have picked every sore spot of any Miles or Trane (or Twardzik, for that matter) bio would have bothered to take note of those errors in that Dorsey bio at all - or would they just shrug things off as being not that important (because TD wasn't that important to them anyway) ...

Which IMO only goes to show that if you look closely enough you will always find room for improvement, and depending on the importance of the subject to you these errors found are considered either more or less severe and this invariably has an impact on your final judgment.

BTW, about that Chet/ballad wuote, I agree it is misleading. But what about the way Chet Baker appeared to the public at large for quite a bit of time? Did they associate ballads or even his singing with him in the first place, or did they judge him primarily by his "Crew" album, for instance? Maybe some of those Zieff charts would have shifted his "public image" and maybe this was what Chambers hinted at

[John L]

For better or worse - who knows? - the Count Basie "autobiography" sure read like an Albert Murray book to me. As I recall Basie answered questions that Murray was likely to ask, and the frequently repeated assertion that the Ellington band was greater is certainly Murray's opinion. Murray could be an enchanting writer and the Basie story was definitely well written.

Those are my impressions as well. I really enjoyed the book and learned quite a bit from it. I didn't mind that it focused primarily on the earlier years, as that is the period of Basie that interests me the most.

[Big Beat Steve]

I learned a lot from it too but isn't it overdoing that "oral history" bit somewhat if you ramble on about this or that musician who "got in a nice say too" (or something like that) when you refer to his solos on recordings or at other shows over and over and over again? Doesn't it blur the focus on the contents if the reader has to wade through repetitive statements like this that don't do much to sustain the story which could well be an exceedingly colorful one? And there are lots of spots like that. A bit of a pity IMO for such a highly interesting subject matter. Oral histories are all very well and do have their merits but are they the optimum way of presenting a full book-length topic if the narrator is not the most outgoing, extrovert, dynamic person in the world? Nothing wrong with not being all that, but how do you get the story across in a manner across that sustains its momentum all by itself throughout instead of making the reader DIG for the nuggets that certainly are there? The very early years were quite colorful to read indeed but somehow I felt that the momentum fizzled out a bit in that story after the Kansas City period, i.e. even before the chronology had reached the post-war period.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[Larry Kart]

I think the "problem" with the Chambers/Twardzik bio (which I enjoyed reading, BTW) is - Who ELSE would have been out there to tackle the subject and come up with the same amount of findings and "hits"? And no doubt some "misses" such as the ones quoted above will inevitably find their way in along the way. And there is BOUND to be someone out there who will be diligent and/or knowledgeable and/or sensitive enough to single them out. But does this invalidate the (overwhelming) "rest" of the book?

What would be the quota of errors that would be accepted before the majority of the readers with average "jazz fan" knowledge would - like a man - discard a book as unusable?

And would the errors be seen as equally important by everyone in the wider field of the targe readers' audience?

I remember the bio on Tommy Dorsey by Peter J. Levinson which I read a couple of years ago (not my no. 1 favorite swing-era jazzman for sure, but the bio was available really dirt cheap at the local Zweitausendeins shop so you just couldn't go wrong at that price). Well-written and insightful IMO and a good read. But then there came that swing-era expert (probably one who had witnessed the era, at last its tail end, in person) who - on some big band forum - gave a scathing listing of factual and interpretational errors in that book that really left little room for counterarguments. Not that the book was faulted in its entirety but it was good to see somebody did some fine-combing there to make you aware of those errors or oversights. But it just shows you always have to use a grain of salt. (Wish I had that listing of errors - for future reference - but unfortunately I did not copy it at the time and that post is long gone)

Yet I wonder how many of those who would have picked every sore spot of any Miles or Trane (or Twardzik, for that matter) bio would have bothered to take note of those errors in that Dorsey bio at all - or would they just shrug things off as being not that important (because TD wasn't that important to them anyway) ...

Which IMO only goes to show that if you look closely enough you will always find room for improvement, and depending on the importance of the subject to you these errors found are considered either more or less severe and this invariably has an impact on your final judgment.

BTW, about that Chet/ballad wuote, I agree it is misleading. But what about the way Chet Baker appeared to the public at large for quite a bit of time? Did they associate ballads or even his singing with him in the first place, or did they judge him primarily by his "Crew" album, for instance? Maybe some of those Zieff charts would have shifted his "public image" and maybe this was what Chambers hinted at

I guess I need to re-read the Chambers-Twardzik bio and compile my own list, but I'll say right now that after a while I began not to trust many of Chambers'"hits"; and since there are, as you say, little or no countervailing accounts of Twardzik's life, where does that leave us -- trusting Chambers if one feels he is a significantly dubious guide or left in the dark?

As for the Chet and ballads thing ("...effectively kept Baker on a musical diet of ballads for the rest of his days"), Chambers is not speaking for the public at large here; he is the one making that assertion, saying that it is fact, when plainly it is not. Again, I'm at a loss as to what his thinking was. Did he not know of the nature of Baker's abundant latter-day work? Or did he just feel like making a sweeping and erroneous assertion for the sake of coming on as a know-it-all, thinking he could get away with it? Whatever, it sure doesn't inspire trust.

[AllenLowe]

I liked the Twardzik - though it is true, I skimmed anything that represented musical judgment - because he seemed to have found a significant number of people who knew Twardzik; and it was their testimony that interested me, girlfriends, relatives, musicians, parents (and his father was a terrific painter).

[l p]

I like: One Hundred Years of the Negro in Show Business is essential

One Hundred Years of the Negro in Show Business by Thomas Fletcher? There's a used copy for € 365.98 on amazon ....

US$245 at Alibris

http://www.amazon.com/100-Years-Negro-Show-Business/dp/B001KTDQM4/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=

$165.00

[Peter Friedman]

Here is my list of many of the jazz books I have enjoyed.

I am certain to have forgotten some others.

Jazz On Record : A Critical Guide To The First Fifty Years - McCarthy, Morgan, Oliver, Harrison

The Essential Jazz Recordings : Vol.2 Modernism to Postmodernism - Harrison, Thacker, Nicho;son

Bill Evans : How My Heart Sings - Pettinger

Loose Shoes : The Story of Ralph Sutton - Shacter

Take Five : The Public and Private Lives of Paul Desmond - Ramsey

Before Motown : A History of Jazz in Detroit 1920-1960 - Bjorn with Gallert

Ten Modern Jazzmen - M. James

Jazz Masters of The Forties - Gitler

Swing To Bop - Gitler

Jazz Masters of the Fifties - Goldberg

Rat Race Blues : The Musical Life of Gigi Gryce - Cohen & Fitzgerald

An Unsung Cat : The Life and Music of Warne Marsh - Chamberlain

The Jazz Tradition - Williams

Where's The Melody - Williams

Jazz Panorama - Williams

Thelonious Monk : The Life and Times of an American Genius - Kelley

Norman Granz : The Man Who Used Jazz For Justice - Hershorn

Drummin' Men : The Heartbeat of Jazz : The bebop Years - Korall

The Song of the Hawk - Chilton

Roy Eldridge : Little Jazz Giant - Chilton

Pee Wee Russell : The Life of a Jazzman - Hilbert

Too Marvelous For Words - The Life & genius of Art Tatum - Lester

Good Vibes : A Life in Jazz - Terry Gibbs with Ginell

Raise Up Off me - Hawes

[BillF]

Here is my list of many of the jazz books I have enjoyed.

I am certain to have forgotten some others.

Jazz On Record : A Critical Guide To The First Fifty Years - McCarthy, Morgan, Oliver, Harrison

The Essential Jazz Recordings : Vol.2 Modernism to Postmodernism - Harrison, Thacker, Nicho;son

Bill Evans : How My Heart Sings - Pettinger

Loose Shoes : The Story of Ralph Sutton - Shacter

Take Five : The Public and Private Lives of Paul Desmond - Ramsey

Before Motown : A History of Jazz in Detroit 1920-1960 - Bjorn with Gallert

Ten Modern Jazzmen - M. James

Jazz Masters of The Forties - Gitler

Swing To Bop - Gitler

Jazz Masters of the Fifties - Goldberg

Rat Race Blues : The Musical Life of Gigi Gryce - Cohen & Fitzgerald

An Unsung Cat : The Life and Music of Warne Marsh - Chamberlain

The Jazz Tradition - Williams

Where's The Melody - Williams

Jazz Panorama - Williams

Thelonious Monk : The Life and Times of an American Genius - Kelley

Norman Granz : The Man Who Used Jazz For Justice - Hershorn

Drummin' Men : The Heartbeat of Jazz : The bebop Years - Korall

The Song of the Hawk - Chilton

Roy Eldridge : Little Jazz Giant - Chilton

Pee Wee Russell : The Life of a Jazzman - Hilbert

Too Marvelous For Words - The Life & genius of Art Tatum - Lester

Good Vibes : A Life in Jazz - Terry Gibbs with Ginell

Raise Up Off me - Hawes

and Art Pepper, Straight Life?

[mikeweil]

I like: One Hundred Years of the Negro in Show Business is essential

One Hundred Years of the Negro in Show Business by Thomas Fletcher? There's a used copy for € 365.98 on amazon ....

US$245 at Alibris

http://www.amazon.com/100-Years-Negro-Show-Business/dp/B001KTDQM4/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=

$165.00

Found out Frankfurt University Library has a copy, but thanks for the hints. I'll rather buy Allen's book later this year ...