Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
BillF

Jazz concert censored!

60 posts in this topic

I didn't really know anything about Atzmon before this cancellation. Having just read an interview with the man where he describes the death marches at the end of WWII as humane and claims Jews went on these marches voluntarily to avoid being captured by the Russians, I'm surprised at the support he has garnered so far in this thread.

Re death marches, try this:

link

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't really know anything about Atzmon before this cancellation. Having just read an interview with the man where he describes the death marches at the end of WWII as humane and claims Jews went on these marches voluntarily to avoid being captured by the Russians, I'm surprised at the support he has garnered so far in this thread.

Re death marches, try this:

link

Thanks for that link. I didn't know he had gone THAT far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has he denied the Holocaust? I get the impression his beef is with the way he feels that the Holocaust is manipulated. Looking online it's hard to distinguish what he has said from what his critics say he has said. If he has denied the Holocaust, then shame on him.

As Bill says, there is little politics in his gigs. In interviews he is completely over the top and deliberately provocative.

He was interviewed in Jazzwise a couple of issues back - went off on one about how he's no longer allowed to wolf-whistle at pretty girls because of 'political correctness'. Seems rather Daily Mail!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact remains that he is a sensational jazz altoist, whatever his views may be.

This takes us back to the old argument about whether an artist's personal immorality detracts from his artistic achievement. In my youth I recall the debate was whether Wordsworth's poetry was damaged by the fact that he had sex with his sister (if he in fact did).

The fact remains that when I was there Atzmon blew a leading altoist like Alan Barnes off the stand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill, if Atzmon's sister shares his views he can go ahead and fuck her for all I care. I won't listen to him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill, if Atzmon's sister shares his views he can go ahead and fuck her for all I care. I won't listen to him.

:lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And that's fine. There are actually a few artists I no longer support and will refuse to pay to see any more. But I don't go out of my way to prevent other people from seeing these artists if they so choose. I really don't think that adults need to be protected from themselves or from hearing views that third parties disagree with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Erwbol, this cannot be serious. Larry Kart has provoked this kind of discussion and he has got it - why on organissimo, a blog for jazz lovers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Erwbol, this cannot be serious. Larry Kart has provoked this kind of discussion and he has got it - why on organissimo, a blog for jazz lovers?

We've been discussing the very unusual event of the prevention of a jazz concert from taking place - a matter of interest to jazz lovers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"that one wonders (I wonder) whether his music has come to serve a more or less calculated pied-piper function"

But I'm perfectly capable of listening to and appreciating his music and being able to make a judgement on his 'political' stance seperately. To suggest otherwise i think might show little regard for his audience in general.

OK, you are "perfectly capable of listening to and appreciating his music and being able to make a judgement on his 'political' stance seperately." But I do have doubts about the ability of Atzmon's audience in general to do this, because Holocaust deniers are practiced flim-flam men.

Larry, I wonder if you would suggest that certain books should be censored or banned because certain people have to be protected from reading what's in them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"that one wonders (I wonder) whether his music has come to serve a more or less calculated pied-piper function"

But I'm perfectly capable of listening to and appreciating his music and being able to make a judgement on his 'political' stance seperately. To suggest otherwise i think might show little regard for his audience in general.

OK, you are "perfectly capable of listening to and appreciating his music and being able to make a judgement on his 'political' stance seperately." But I do have doubts about the ability of Atzmon's audience in general to do this, because Holocaust deniers are practiced flim-flam men.

Larry, I wonder if you would suggest that certain books should be censored or banned because certain people have to be protected from reading what's in them.

Paul -- This is part of what I said in post #22 above:

"And again ... I don't think that banning or censorship is the answer, just a cool, calm expose of what I think Atzmon's game is....."

Does that answer your question?

Also, as I tried to explain in that post, I believe that Atzmon, a musician of talent, is conflating his musical gifts with his batshit Holocaust denial views in an attempt to lend legitimacy to those views. That's not a situation that seems to me to run parallel to your "[should] certain books be censored or banned because certain people have to be protected from reading what's in them. What might be closer to parallel would be a situation where buying a ticket to a particular concert meant that one's name would be placed on a mailing list of a publication devoted to hate literature. And even so, I would still take the cool, calm expose route.

A Lark Ascending -- Yes, Atzmon is a Holocaust denier. See the interview with him that Erwbol linked to in post #26.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't know how reliable that article is. The author asserts that Mein Kampf cannot be purchased on amazon but it can and always could be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And that's fine. There are actually a few artists I no longer support and will refuse to pay to see any more. But I don't go out of my way to prevent other people from seeing these artists if they so choose. I really don't think that adults need to be protected from themselves or from hearing views that third parties disagree with.

In the Netherlands, three radical imams recently had their visa's rescinded. They were going to speak at a benefit, not preach in a mosque as far as I'm aware. If next year they plan to come over again as the Great Oud Trio, should we let them enter?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, as I tried to explain in that post, I believe that Atzmon, a musician of talent, is conflating his musical gifts with his batshit Holocaust denial views in an attempt to lend legitimacy to those views.

This conflation seems fundamental to your argument but I can't actually see any evidence that you preesnt to support this conflation, unless I've missed something upthread.

Edited by mjazzg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't know how reliable that article is. The author asserts that Mein Kampf cannot be purchased on amazon but it can and always could be.

That interview on ynetnews.com was published on 14 November, 2011. If these weren't Atzmon's own words surely he would have taken action by now.

As for Mein Kampf, it might be for sale on the American and British amazon, but it is banned in other countries like the Netherlands. I would be surprised if you could have it shipped to localities it is banned through amazon.com or .uk. Or order it through amazon.nl (sells ebooks only at this moment in time).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And that's fine. There are actually a few artists I no longer support and will refuse to pay to see any more. But I don't go out of my way to prevent other people from seeing these artists if they so choose. I really don't think that adults need to be protected from themselves or from hearing views that third parties disagree with.

In the Netherlands, three radical imams recently had their visa's rescinded. They were going to speak at a benefit, not preach in a mosque as far as I'm aware. If next year they plan to come over again as the Great Oud Trio, should we let them enter?

If they are legitimate musicians, then yes. But we both know they aren't. Your straw man argument is absurd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And that's fine. There are actually a few artists I no longer support and will refuse to pay to see any more. But I don't go out of my way to prevent other people from seeing these artists if they so choose. I really don't think that adults need to be protected from themselves or from hearing views that third parties disagree with.

In the Netherlands, three radical imams recently had their visa's rescinded. They were going to speak at a benefit, not preach in a mosque as far as I'm aware. If next year they plan to come over again as the Great Oud Trio, should we let them enter?

If they are legitimate musicians, then yes. But we both know they aren't. Your straw man argument is absurd.

Even if they were legitimate musicians, no. The point is we refuse such people any platform because of, among other things, their holocaust denials, dangerous lies we should not tolerate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And that's fine. There are actually a few artists I no longer support and will refuse to pay to see any more. But I don't go out of my way to prevent other people from seeing these artists if they so choose. I really don't think that adults need to be protected from themselves or from hearing views that third parties disagree with.

In the Netherlands, three radical imams recently had their visa's rescinded. They were going to speak at a benefit, not preach in a mosque as far as I'm aware. If next year they plan to come over again as the Great Oud Trio, should we let them enter?

If they are legitimate musicians, then yes. But we both know they aren't. Your straw man argument is absurd.

Even if they were legitimate musicians, no. The point is we refuse such people any platform because of, among other things, their holocaust denials, dangerous lies we should not tolerate.

And this is where Americans (and generally Canadians, though there is more tolerance for censorship and staying within "reasonable" bounds) and Europeans differ. There is no point in my continuing this debate. All that said, I probably will go and see Atzmon if he turns up here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know Mr. Atzmon's music and I don't know if I'd ever go to hear him play. I do know that I don't need someone else to make that decision for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know Mr. Atzmon's music and I don't know if I'd ever go to hear him play. I do know that I don't need someone else to make that decision for me.

You're free to buy his CDs and books. Want to hear him live in Manchester? Throw him a private loft party.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, as I tried to explain in that post, I believe that Atzmon, a musician of talent, is conflating his musical gifts with his batshit Holocaust denial views in an attempt to lend legitimacy to those views.

This conflation seems fundamental to your argument but I can't actually see any evidence that you preesnt to support this conflation, unless I've missed something upthread.

Don't know how Atzmon behaves at performances, i.e. whether he alludes to his views in that setting, but he has been interviewed by journalists many times on the basis that he is 1) a notable native Israeli jazz musician and 2) that he holds the arguably extreme views he holds on the Holocaust and the Jews, which have been outlined and linked to above; and the interviews then tend to be about the supposed paradox, or whatever one calls it, between 1) and 2). Also, these interviews typically allowing Atzmon a good deal of room to expound on his arguably extreme views. This, I think, is where the conflation lies, and while I don't know whether Atzmon set out to engineer it, he certainly has to be aware that it exists and that he is fairly often acting within or on that basis to a considerable degree. Further, a fair number of Atzmon's interviews are for general interest publications; and if it were not for 1)-plus-2) framework that Atzmon embodies those publications scarcely would be devoting a fair amount of space to such Holocaust-denier arguments as, e.g. the Jews were willing participants in so-called "death marches," etc.

A parallel to the Atzmon conflation, as I see it, might be the subject of parents who refuse to vaccinate their children on the grounds that vaccinations cause autism and other diseases. This movement has been much in the news recently, as outbreaks of measles, etc. are on the rise in areas where the anti-vaccination movement has been strong; and a fair number of well-known entertainment figures, movie stars and the like, are in the vanguard of the anti-vaccination movement. Thus, the media being the media, a good many stories about the supposed evils/dangers of having one's children vaccinated have been wrapped around the fact that famous figure Jennie S. or Mary Y. holds these views, which those figures then typically expound upon in the story. Again, censorship is not the answer, but you do see how the 1)-plus-2) principle can work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know Mr. Atzmon's music and I don't know if I'd ever go to hear him play. I do know that I don't need someone else to make that decision for me.

Again, just to be clear, censorship/banning, etc. is not my view of how Atzmon should be responded to -- not only because I object to censorship/banning on much the grounds you do, but also because such acts tend to fan the rhetorical fires that guys like Atzmon seek to stir up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, as I tried to explain in that post, I believe that Atzmon, a musician of talent, is conflating his musical gifts with his batshit Holocaust denial views in an attempt to lend legitimacy to those views.

This conflation seems fundamental to your argument but I can't actually see any evidence that you preesnt to support this conflation, unless I've missed something upthread.

and the interviews then tend to be about the supposed paradox, or whatever one calls it, between 1) and 2). Also, these interviews typically allowing Atzmon a good deal of room to expound on his arguably extreme views.

Really so? Can you link to such articles? I only ask as I've read many articles about Atzmon over the years in the UK music press and rarely are the two elements of his life given equal measure. In the music interviews there may be passing reference to his political activism but not to my knowledge to the detail of his beliefs. I'd go as far to say that anyone who'd read the music press in UK about him would be surprised by depth his political activism.

Such a lack of explicit conflation may well be editorial decisions of the publications not wanting to have their content politicised. It may be that Atzmon doesn't expouse his more extreme views in these interviews precisely to prevent potential listeners being turned off by such unpalatable views

Let's pause a moment in this discussion to hear some music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0xzTTlX_a4

lovely playing.........

Edited by mjazzg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice playing.

Still, I have to say fuck him.

His shit goes beyond just a musician expressing a political opinion or view, he's obsessed with his hatred of Jews. I mean read the shit he wrote after the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

I agree censorship is not always the answer, but I tend to agree this is more of a banning or outright refusal to give him the stage. I definitely agree that in this case ,it has only given him more publicity and another reason to speak his bullshit. This is not to say the venue was wrong though.

On a side note, I really miss the political portion of this forum.

Edited by catesta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.