Why I hate Miles

[Pete C]

I think this is the closest to what I feel, except to point out there were also a whole lot of demons in the outside world when he was performing and I think they get inside his music and define it to a certain extent. I mean the whole of the 65-68 quartet sounds to me like he's going to hell, and the 70s fusion stuff sounds like he is in hell. I see that as paralleling what was going on in Society at the time.

Or maybe he was just making music.

In other words, I can understand where you're coming from, but I find your response both overly romantic and overly analytical.

But that's me. I also find the rampant portrayal of Coltrane's music as "spiritual" annoying too.

Edited February 22, 2004 by Pete C

[Pete C]

Miles always reminded me of Billie Holiday, especially in her later years. Neither was a skillful technician, but both had the capacity to perform with an emotion that relegated the technical aspect of their artistry to a back burner. There was a compelling fragility about Billie's singing, and I felt that also in many of Miles' minimalist solos--he could express himself as eloquently with a couple of notes as many of his contemporaries did with a hornful.

I couldn't agree more. Interestingly, the recordings where Miles shows the most chops, IMO, the Philharmonic Hall recordings, are among my least favorites--but I know a lot of people really dig these.

[Pete C]

(we have very reasonable burglars in Worksop).

It must be the Jazz Worksop.

[Brad]

This is a rather thought provoking thread and basically gets down to why I (or anyone) likes or dislikes Miles? I have heard this argument before that he doesn't have good technique but I like Miles because of how he pared down his style to the bare essentials minimalist of style. Maybe he did that because he realized he couldn't blow like a Dizzy or a Kenny Dorham. Whatever each of us have we try to make do with the best we have. Maybe that's why he pared down his style. For me it works. His tone, which I like, is instantly recognizable and you recognize it to be Mile and no one else. It's also the emotion in his playing that comes through. As Chris and others noted, there may be others with more talent, but there are a lot of people out there with talent who don't always come to the fore.

There must have been something there for Bird and Dizzy to take him under their wing when they came through St. Louis when they were with Hines. For Miles to play with Bird on his seminal Savoy session, instead of Dizzy, there must have been something there.

I know you didn't address this point but Miles was in the forefront of every big movement in music since 1945. To me, that's something. I don't know how you can ignore that. You can't separate the man from his ambiance or environment. I also don't think the argument that he surrounded himself with good players is all that meaningful. Of course he did, he recognized talent and wanted to play with some of the best. Who wants to play with crap?

Now if you want to get into a discussion about which period of Miles you like, there's some interesting conversation there. I'm not wild about his late 60s stuff on. Everything before that I love. But that's just my opinion and I know it's not universally held.

[connoisseur series500]

If the burglars were to come round and say 'We're taking all your CDs except one artist" then I think Miles is who I'd keep (we have very reasonable burglars in Worksop). And that in spite of my jazz Europhilia.

Okay, I'll be sure to tell them!

Edited February 22, 2004 by connoisseur series500

[Pete C]

For my money, Clifford may have been the greatest jazz TRUMPETER of all, but Miles was the greater jazz MUSICIAN.

[Rooster_Ties]

I'm just getting to this party late (I haven't been on the board all day), and I've only skimmed just the first few posts in this thread --- so pardon if someone has already said something like this before...

You know what?? Miles wasn't the greatest trumpet player ever. IN FACT, when I think of trying to rank all the trumpet players that I personally like, I usually can't even include Miles in the rankings. I mean, compared to Lee Morgan and Woody Shaw, Miles almost wasn't a trumpet player, or at least not enough the conventional sense, to make any sort of intelligent comparison. (And in this respect, I think Miles is more in the same category as I put Don Cherry, or Tomasz Stanko, or even Kenny Wheeler.)

And that's just it -- my brain (criticize all you want, but my brain thinks the way it thinks, and even I can't change that), let me I'll start again... My brain can't even include Miles in that "greatest trumpet player" game, because the Miles I love most (starting in December of 1965, and going on until 1975), doesn't play trumpet in enough of a "conventional" kind of way, in order to make such a comparison. And with each passing year -- 1965, '66, '67, '68, '69, '70, '71, '72, '73, '74, and '75 -- Miles gets more and more unconventional. (And I list each year separately, because each year represents a slightly different version of Miles.)

My brain can compare Lee Morgan, and Woody Shaw, and Charles Tolliver, and Freddie Hubbard, and any of a dozen similar trumpeters, with each other ----- but how can I compare the Miles of 1969 and 1970 with all those other "progressive hardbop" trumpeters??? I can't. So I don't

I love Miles playing, more and more with each passing year after he joined Columbia in 1956. I don't specifically dislike Miles dates for Prestige (and before), but there are very few Miles dates before 1956 that I get very excited about. (I used to own the Prestige box, but sold it a few years ago to a friend with more conservative tastes than me. Perhaps there are a handful of individual Miles albums from that Prestige box that I might like, but they've never been much of a priority for me either.)

The Miles that I love is Miles on Columbia, and he makes his quantum leap for me with "The Plugged Nickel" recordings in December of 1965. I like nearly every Miles recording I've heard from the earlier 1955-1965 era, but I LOVE nearly every Miles recording I've heard from the 1965-1975 era.

Miles was an incredible bandleader, who happened to play trumpet. And I think the way he played trumpet, transcended the instrument itself.

OK, I've said my bit -- now I'm going back to read the rest of this thread (meaning everything above this post).

Edited February 22, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[Jazzmoose]

JazzMoose posted some interesting remarks in this thread about his judgement of Miles not being that essential or likeable (hope I'm not putting any words in your moose mouth here). I agree with that sentiment.

Do I know you, sir?

[connoisseur series500]

Man, Jim Sangrey said it all (as usual!)

We've got to recognize Miles' understanding of timing and space. He ratcheted up the intensity whenever he entered the mix. I'm not a musician so I can't perfectly express myself on this, but he could articulate his emotions and they had depth.

Sure, I cringe at some of the mute tones particularly from the Prestige years, but I never tire of listening to this great musician.

No need to reiterate about how he was in the vanguard of jazz and how he constantly reinvented his music. His talent for selecting the right musical geniuses for his bands is well known as well. His personal life and personal mythology were larger than life. His influence was/is omnipresent. He didn't have the smothness of a Clifford Brown or the articulation of a Woody Shaw or the soul of a Lee Morgan, but he was unmatched by anybody in his own style.

As a trumpeter, he makes my top five (leaving out other factors such as his supremacy in forming bands and creating styles.)

Sangrey, you ought to write a book on this stuff. I can't believe how articulate you can be, even if you have a tin ear regarding Bill Evans.

[Free For All]

it's the third where the trouble begins and you seem to agree with my stance at least to some extent.

Yes, although my stance is a more "half full" where yours is more "half empty"!

And couw, do you really "hate" Miles? That's a pretty strong word, especially if you do indeed agree with even one of my other points. Or were you just going for bit of National Enquirer-type sensationalism with the thread title? B)

I think this is a very interesting thread and I'm glad we can have discussions about potentially divisive issues like this and keep things in perspective. That's why I like this place.

.....and here comes Rooster finally. I was wondering where he was.............

[Jazzmoose]

I think Miles led some great bands. His second quintet in particular I love to hear. And that John what's-his-face in his first quintet was kinda nice as well. The problem is, I don't care for his tone either. And by the time we get to "Bitches Brew", I think he's taking this "carefully chosen notes" bit to the absurd. I'm sure I'm wrong, but oft times, I don't think Bitches Brew would sound that different if you just edited Miles' trumpet out of the mix...

Even with the earlier stuff, I find myself being more of a Coltrane and Shorter fan than a Miles fan. (And not just those two, all the musicians in Mile's two quintets were miles ahead...sorry...of Davis in my estimation.)

Admittedly, the fact that the sound of a harmon mute seems to make my ears bleed doesn't help...

[Harold_Z]

My 2 cents: Miles - great musician, great soloist, great player, great choice of sidemen. I can go on with a few more "greats". Too many "greats" for it to be an accident. The man had the mojo.

The negative is that sometimes, for whatever reasons, he layed off the ax for protracted periods, and when he came back and was first getting into it again ( i.e. Plugged Nickel for one example) it showed. To me it didn't matter, the music and the ideas were there.

All the stuff about mutes, etc...I can't buy that. It's about music and ideas. Harry Edison (for one) someetimes used a Harmon mute and at the other end of that scene so did Clyde McCoy. It's about the message.

[Pete C]

Harry Edison (for one) someetimes used a Harmon mute

Sweets may be the only other trumpeter who had as distinctive a muted sound as Miles. And it worked great on recordings with Sinatra & Lady Day.

[danasgoodstuff]

Jazzmoose,

Yes Miles did sometimes play (and act off the stand more so) as if he was reading his press releases, particularly the minimalist bit. BUT I can't agree that BB and after would've been at all the same without him--he brings and intensity, focus and free-form programatic sense that this is ABOUT something that the others mostly lack (except John McL, up to a point). That's why so much of S. Grossman and other's contributions hit the editing room floor--much of what went down when Miles laid out was, as some one said of 'fusion' generally, 'macho noodling'. Even then, Miles simply being in the room probably had a positive effect; without him it's Return to Forever (2nd ed.)!

It's instructive that tone seems to be the breaking point here, it's the most personal and subjective aspect and if lyou don't like the guy's basic sound it's kinda hard to fully appreciate anything else. Me, I like Miles' sound and agree it's a lot more complex than simply 'vunerable' or 'making the best of what you have'. If not self-consciously 'contrived', then certainly self-aware...(?)

[Simon Weil]

I think this is the closest to what I feel, except to point out there were also a whole lot of demons in the outside world when he was performing and I think they get inside his music and define it to a certain extent. I mean the whole of the 65-68 quartet sounds to me like he's going to hell, and the 70s fusion stuff sounds like he is in hell. I see that as paralleling what was going on in Society at the time.

Or maybe he was just making music.

In other words, I can understand where you're coming from, but I find your response both overly romantic and overly analytical.

Well, here's your opportunity to really chew me out, then.

And, plug, plug, don't miss the following articles.

Simon Weil

[Pete C]

Well, here's your opportunity to really chew me out, then.

I wasn't chewing. Just gently nibbling.

[7/4]

What JSngry said. Amen.

Wasn't it Gil Evans who said Miles reinvented the trumpet? I listen for that in any player, I should be able to ID the cat with a few notes. Jon Hassell is another trumpet player who does that for me. Name a young trp player who does that, I'd like to know who he is.

[Guy Berger]

I think Miles led some great bands. His second quintet in particular I love to hear. And that John what's-his-face in his first quintet was kinda nice as well. The problem is, I don't care for his tone either. And by the time we get to "Bitches Brew", I think he's taking this "carefully chosen notes" bit to the absurd. I'm sure I'm wrong, but oft times, I don't think Bitches Brew would sound that different if you just edited Miles' trumpet out of the mix...

????

I think the Bitches Brew-Live Evil period has some of Miles's most explosive, up-front, chops-heavy playing. Listen to "Right Off" (from JJ), "Miles Runs the Voodoo Down" (Bitches Brew), "What I Say" (Live Evil), or any live version of "Directions".

I actually prefer his open-horn ballad playing. The 12/54 versions of "The Man I Love" contain some of my favorite trumpet, by anyone.

Guy

[jazzbo]

I'm with you Guy. And on "Isn't It About that Time" on In A Silent Way Miles plays a solo that has been in my head ever since I heard it. It's funky, it's so well executed, it's like ten times better than anything I ever heard Lee Morgan do (for my taste, at least)!

Miles was REALLY coming into his own coming out of the sixties and into the seventies!

[TedR]

My first post. I've been reading the wonderful posts here for a long time and want to thank so many of you for teaching me so much about my favorite music. You've opened my ears to different musicans and eras in jazz that I wouldn't have considered without this forum.

I took trumpet lessons from a member of the Cleveland Orchestra when I was in high school. My lessons were strictly on improving technique.....all I listened for in other trumpeters was technique. Then, on the radio, I heard a live jazz recording that changed how I heard music. I didn't hear bravura playing. I heard pure musical expression. At the end of the cut the dj said it was Miles Davis. At the time (early 70's) I hadn't heard of him. That was when my exploration of jazz music started. From then on Bugler's Holiday was a technical challenge while Billie Holiday became a treasure. Because of that I love Miles!

[Christiern]

Welcome, TedR. Here's hoping you get into a regular routine of posting.

Chris A

[Free For All]

Welcome to the party TedR! Glad you don't hate Miles!

[couw]

And couw, do you really "hate" Miles? That's a pretty strong word, especially if you do indeed agree with even one of my other points. Or were you just going for  bit of National Enquirer-type sensationalism with the thread title? B)

Would you have been that much tempted to click on a thread titled "why my Miles cup is half empty where yours may be half full?"

Probably you would, but I bet you were a fraction of a second faster with the current thread title.

Anyhow, thank you all for a great discussion!

and welcome TedR!

Edited February 23, 2004 by couw

[BERIGAN]

Man, sure a lot of posts for a thread started on a Saturday!

I doubt I can really add anything that hasn't been said before, but I won't let that stop me!

I don't hate Miles Davis. I have the 2 cds that you are required by law to own if you are a jazz fan, and I like them fine.....and have heard other recordings thru the years, but cannot claim to be an expert on his music. I guess I just wonder why he has become such an Icon of Jazz, why every note he ever recorded(I know that's not true) ends up on cd. I read every once or twice a year it seems about some new box set and how he wasn't at his best, but how it still is worth getting....I don't think the alternate takes get released like his name was Charlie Parker, but there clearly is more demand for his music based on the huge jazz sections in stores, bigger than than just about anyone else....Hey, great for his fans!

Why didn't Kenny Dorham, Clifford Brown, Woody Shaw or Lee Morgan "Catch" in the same way? Premature death usually helps artists for some reason.

Does the fact that a woman beating, drug using , back to the audience trumpet player helped put fannies in the seats of venues, be the reason he still sells cds today?

I do believe that the Miles Davis fans on this board are true Miles fans, not poseurs, please don't get me wrong! I just feel others have gotten short changed through the years......

[BERIGAN]

Oh very brave couw!