Desmond/Konitz

[Larry Kart]

You know what Desmond's lines kind of (but only kind of) remind me of at times: Billy Taylor's. 

[king ubu]

Re: early Desmond - hellyeah! Some of those very early sides for Fantasy with Brubeck are pure magic! "You Go to My Head" and "Over the Rainbow" from Storyville, Boston, October 1952 (on the CD "Dave Brubeck/Paul Desmond" - there's a blue one also titled "Stardust" and red one with a b/w pic that's just "Dave Brubeck/Paul Desmond" and both contain their share of amazing music), or the longer take of "Stardust" (on the blue disc, obviously), live from Berkely, March 1, 1954.

And if you want to hear Desmond playing FAST (!) and treaing it up and adding boppish phrases to the mix, get "Jazz at Oberlin" (March 2, 1953).

No real clue as to why Desmond ended up being Desmond, but these early sides cover so much territory and some of the stuff going on between him and Brubeck is pure magic indeed.

Regarding early Columbia, one track I've always been particularly fond of because of Desmond is "Audrey" on the album "Brubeck Time" (rec. Oct 1954).

[xybert]

I think I agree with HutchFan, though I'm not knowledgable enough on the Desmond side of things to offer any observations on his music outside/post Brubeck (and only somewhat within the context of Brubeck).

Then again, the last time I saw Konitz - in a quartet with Peacock, Frisell and Baron - it was a musical shit-show.

Yeah, never seen him live myself but i've seen a few people mention bad experiences with seeing him live in recent years. I guess my take on it is, he's still capable (IMO) based on what i've heard on CD but at 80+ years old he has some off nights.

[JSngry]

The guy's old, yeah, you gotta expect that. And he's committed to feeling it, which cannot be forced. And he seems to get Old Man-ish crankier every year (and I mean that in the good way). So sure, off nights to be expected, but bad nights more than earned, imo. It's not like you show up to hear him play his hits or anything and then get pissed when all he does is play deep cuts off his new concept album.

OTOH, if it's really getting that bad, hell. I still would pay money to go and listen to him talk for an hour or two, kinda like Roy Eldridge did when he couldn't play any more. Lee Konitz, is, obviously, a very...lively conversationalist!

[AllenLowe]

it's always been pretty clear to me that Konitz's '60s tone was a response to Ornette, consciously or not; I remember first thinking this about Spirits - I think it was (is that the one with Sal Mosca?)

not long afterwards he became a Scientologist and would, for a time, only record with Scientologists, as Dick Katz told me with great annoyance back then (I think Danko was a Scientologist).

Edited August 19, 2015 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Scientology? Lee? Really?

That's of "interest" to me only he was the first "name" Tristano-ite to declare any sort of real independence...it took Warne until damn near the end of his life to "break free" of that. Maybe Lee's got his own take on it, I've heard that some people do that without succumbing to the "cult" aspects of it, but, still...that seems like a really weird move for such a free thinker.

But maybe not...after all what is the practical difference between Lennie's ideal state of playing from the Id, and Scientology's described state of "clear"?

[xybert]

Interesting that you mention Ornette. I'm often reminded of Ornette when i listen to Konitz's more recent stuff.

Getting in to Konitz in 2012 i was kind of surprised by the Konitz/scientology connection. I just did a quick google and am copying and pasting what i posted in an AAJ forum thread here:

Random thought; i've noticed there's a bit of a connection between Konitz and Chick Corea. It doesn't seem to get mentioned much. I'm still a relative newbie to Konitz but i've noticed he's recorded a few Corea compositions, at least as late as 1984. Is 'Chick Came Around' from 'Ideal Scene' a reference to Corea? I've seen videos on youtube of them performing together. From what i gather Konitz was involved with scientology to some degree; was it just a dabbling? Is he still a scientologist? None of these questions are in the least bit important and i figure i'm just thinking aloud here but as a Corea fan i was surprised to uncover a connection i never knew about.

Edited August 19, 2015 by xybert

[clifford_thornton]

Didn't know about that - huh. 

I don't think the off night was entirely Konitz' fault - Peacock is pretty rough these days. Baron and Frisell seemed to be enjoying themselves though I felt the guitarist was holding back too much.

[jlhoots]

Didn't know about that - huh. 

I don't think the off night was entirely Konitz' fault - Peacock is pretty rough these days. Baron and Frisell seemed to be enjoying themselves though I felt the guitarist was holding back too much.

I know not everyone agrees, but it's the damn "scat" singing that doesn't work for me.

[clifford_thornton]

I was speaking mostly of his bass playing - is there more I should be worried about?

[jlhoots]

I was speaking mostly of his bass playing - is there more I should be worried about?

No, no - Lee's scat singing drives me crazy.

[Larry Kart]

Scientology? Lee? Really?

That's of "interest" to me only he was the first "name" Tristano-ite to declare any sort of real independence...it took Warne until damn near the end of his life to "break free" of that. Maybe Lee's got his own take on it, I've heard that some people do that without succumbing to the "cult" aspects of it, but, still...that seems like a really weird move for such a free thinker.

But maybe not...after all what is the practical difference between Lennie's ideal state of playing from the Id, and Scientology's described state of "clear"?

Yes, Scientology, really. Don't know how long it lasted, though. As for Danko, he was and is an excellent pianist and was an ideal complement to Lee. A terrific guy, too.

About Tristano's ideal state of playing from the id and Scientology's state of "clear," I think the main point of connection/similarity was Tristano's controlling personality and the cloistered world he assembled for himself and his acolytes.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Larry Kart

[JSngry]

Sure, but...wouldn't the stated objectives be more or less the same? Clear away all the baggage and be your ownest, freeest potentiality realization?

Only known a few people myself who have gotten into Scientology. Nobody went Hardcore Corea about it, a few dabbled then dropped, and a few got over the initial buzz and kept it to themselves, presumably going forth. So, no immediate presuppositions about it in general. Just surprised that somebody who resisted that kind of "control" would take up something that is, at least in the public view, very much about that.

Then again, we are who we are, I suppose, and needs be needs.

[Larry Kart]

Sure, but...wouldn't the stated objectives be more or less the same? Clear away all the baggage and be your ownest, freeest potentiality realization?

Only known a few people myself who have gotten into Scientology. Nobody went Hardcore Corea about it, a few dabbled then dropped, and a few got over the initial buzz and kept it to themselves, presumably going forth. So, no immediate presuppositions about it in general. Just surprised that somebody who resisted that kind of "control" would take up something that is, at least in the public view, very much about that.

Then again, we are who we are, I suppose, and needs be needs.

Stated objectives, perhaps, but Scientology was and is a con game, and Lennie's project, controlling though it could be, was not -- Lee, Warne, Sal Mosca, Don Ferrara, Peter Ind and many others are sufficient evidence of that, not to mention Lennie's own music.

[colinmce]

Didn't know about that - huh. 

I don't think the off night was entirely Konitz' fault - Peacock is pretty rough these days. Baron and Frisell seemed to be enjoying themselves though I felt the guitarist was holding back too much.

Peacock I could see working, but Frisell & Baron with Konitz sounds all wrong.  Plus I think BF is boring.

[AllenLowe]

the reason I think Scientology appealed to guys like Konitz (per Larry Kart above) was the structured way in which it ordered existence; it gave you a way to function with someone else doing the planning about practical matters. Same as with Lenny, who I met only once but who was one of the most disturbing people whose presence I have ever shared. Controlling, overconfident, arrogant, and certain he knew best about everyone and everything.

and yes, I like Danko as both pianist and person, worked with him in New Haven in the 1990s when he was my neighbor. Katz was highly annoyed that, because of his lack of affiliation, Konitz stopped calling him.

Lenny also, I should add, had an 'aura,' it is true, and gave a sense he knew everything about you.

as to Larry's comment on Billy Taylor and Desmond - very interesting. I always regarded Taylor as accomplished but facile and slick.

Edited August 20, 2015 by AllenLowe

[HutchFan]

Interesting stuff about Konitz and Scientology. I had no idea.

Even if Konitz was just dabbling with Scientology, it reminds me of something that I remember in Konitz's book.  I remember him describing the experience of going to see a certain musician and then talking about how he was playing "wrong" -- and then sort of being offended by it in a moralistic sort of way. (Don't hold me to this b/c it's been a while since I read the book, but I think it was Art Pepper.) And it wasn't as if Konitz felt like the artist was taking a "different path" than his; it was an issue of right and wrong/black and white. (I remember reading about Tristano and his crew getting up and leaving in the middle of other musicians' sets -- as if the music were offending them, somehow reprehensible. A similar sort of thing.)  Konitz is obviously an extremely intelligent, thoughtful guy -- and incredibly brilliant musician, one of my all-time favorites. But that stuff has always struck me as darn odd if not nutty.

 

[JSngry]

Re: early Desmond - hellyeah! Some of those very early sides for Fantasy with Brubeck are pure magic! "You Go to My Head" and "Over the Rainbow" from Storyville, Boston, October 1952 (on the CD "Dave Brubeck/Paul Desmond" - there's a blue one also titled "Stardust" and red one with a b/w pic that's just "Dave Brubeck/Paul Desmond" and both contain their share of amazing music), or the longer take of "Stardust" (on the blue disc, obviously), live from Berkely, March 1, 1954.

Yeah, those are the two that I'd insist on as being "must haves" for anybody looking to listen for information rather than for recreation. Between those two CDs, you get, I think, the full first sets of DBQ records to go to the marketplace in the wake of the Brubeck Trio records, recorded between 1951 & early 1954. I can only wonder how they sounded to contemporaneous ears, especially in terms of timbre, Desmond in particular. And Joe Dodge's Chinese cymbal riding that beat like some kind of endless wave-crashuing.

But something like "On A Little Street In Singapore", or the long version of "At A Perfume Counter". They're totally at odds with almost all other "West Coast Jazz" of the time (which was being made, remember, largely by transplanted East Coasters). They don't really take Basie as a reference point, and they use dissonnce and reharmonization in a much more aggressive and unaccommodating way than most of the WCJ that was getting a popular hearing. The closest thing to it might be the Mingus Debut records of the time(!). Definitely more Mingus than Mulligan, that's for sure.

The reharmonizations of the standards goes far beyond what Tristano had been doing to that point, At times, it's rudely abrupt, and sometimes flat-out reconstructive. And the green and red vinyls only must have made them seem all the more "different" (I found a green Oberlin with no jacket at a swap shop years ago for a dime, and snapped it right up to have as an "object", but it played well enough to keep as a record).

And I find it real interesting that unlike a lot of their other WC compatriots from down the coast who had the studio gigs to keep them happy staying home, the DBQ came East early on. They played Birdland in 1951, Storyville in 1952, and if the NYC scene of the time was, as is perhaps stereotypically considered, perhaps not dominated by, but certainly populated by a lot of junkies playing a lot of already well-worn bebop in loosely organized pickup units, I can only imagine what these smiling (does there exist a picture of Brubeck where he is either not thoughtful or smiling REALLY broadly?), horn-rimmed, suited white guys with hair and horn-rims to match must have looked and sounded like playing all this counter-pointy weird ass harmony and then out of it comes a roar of white-noise cymbal that seemed to wrap up every JATP experience into one man/one cymbal, cotton-toned alto playing that referenced damn near everything except last year's Bird's records, and a piano player who couldn't play single lines for shit, but could pound out some chords that may or may not have seemed relevant to the song that was being played. Must've seemed like a foreign invasion or something...but on the 1952 Storyville Broadcasts, Nat Hentoff is giddy like a 10 year old who's just discovered what petticoats were really for, speaking french and making alliterative jokes like he's jsut some silly boy.Yeah, those are the two CDs people might want to hear at some point. Personally, if I was to ever cull down, I think they might be the only Brubeck I keep. They'd definitely be the last ones I let go. And that long take on Stardust, you mention, that's an amazing improvisation, really, at times threatening to break into the kind of rhapsodic free trilling/thrusting playing that would come from a whole 'nother set of people/places a decade later.

There's also a free-association quality to all of the performances, but especially the live ones, that is at times disarming. Nobody's really running licks to make a chorus, if you know what I mean, they're all willing to let it wander as they go along if it needs to, bar lines crossed, changes move around, all of it seeming just because that's what was happening at the moment. Again, disarming, because these were not furrow-browed searchers from the shadows of the regular world, these were all guys you could see out in T-Shirts mowing their yards on Saturday morning or something like that, at least so you might think.

Things like that happen often enough over that music, and yet, I don't know that it's really widely known. I get the sense that people who really dig Brubeck find it "formative" or something, not really relevant, and that people who don't particularly dig Brubeck just don't care, period. Can't help any of that, all I can do is say that it's there, it's good, and it certainly is not what you get on Time Out, not even.

 

[medjuck]

 

Regarding early Columbia, one track I've always been particularly fond of because of Desmond is "Audrey" on the album "Brubeck Time" (rec. Oct 1954).

I've always liked his solos on "Balcony Rock", where he shows he could play the blues (though I can't think of any other examples)  and Le Souk, where he goes East a few years before Miles and Coltrane did. Both on Jazz Goes to College. 

[HutchFan]

 

Regarding early Columbia, one track I've always been particularly fond of because of Desmond is "Audrey" on the album "Brubeck Time" (rec. Oct 1954).

I've always liked his solos on "Balcony Rock", where he shows he could play the blues (though I can't think of any other examples)  and Le Souk, where he goes East a few years before Miles and Coltrane did. Both on Jazz Goes to College. 

If I were limited to just one DBQ record, it would be Jazz Goes to College.

[JSngry]

 

Edited August 20, 2015 by JSngry

[Joe]

Not to derail this discussion, but to perhaps expand its scope... I'm trying to think of any players who, in turn, evince a Paul Desmond INFLUENCE, and I can't really think of any. Then again, perhaps said players occupy a different position with respect to what we think of as the main stream of jazz. E.g., just hypothetically, if we were to classify Chuck Greenberg as having been influenced in some way by Desmond, would that "count" in terms of the kind of saxophone lineages under review here?

[HutchFan]

Not to derail this discussion, but to perhaps expand its scope... I'm trying to think of any players who, in turn, evince a Paul Desmond INFLUENCE, and I can't really think of any. Then again, perhaps said players occupy a different position with respect to what we think of as the main stream of jazz. E.g., just hypothetically, if we were to classify Chuck Greenberg as having been influenced in some way by Desmond, would that "count" in terms of the kind of saxophone lineages under review here?

How about Will Vinson?

[JSngry]

Not to derail this discussion, but to perhaps expand its scope... I'm trying to think of any players who, in turn, evince a Paul Desmond INFLUENCE, and I can't really think of any. Then again, perhaps said players occupy a different position with respect to what we think of as the main stream of jazz. E.g., just hypothetically, if we were to classify Chuck Greenberg as having been influenced in some way by Desmond, would that "count" in terms of the kind of saxophone lineages under review here?

Joe, this will be of "local interest" only, but the next time you see Roger Boykin, ask him what he thinks about Paul Desmond. The rabidness of his enthusiasm may take you aback, as it did me the first time I encountered it, but he's got his reasons, and he can and will expound upon them at great length. He gets Desmond in a way that not too many do.

Also, I may be wrong, but isn't Braxton fond of Desmond as well as Konitz/Marsh? I also seem to recall something about Julius Hemphill being pretty taken in by PD as well, early in his growth. Not influences per se, but...thisng work funny like that sometimes.

[Larry Kart]

Interesting stuff about Konitz and Scientology. I had no idea.

Even if Konitz was just dabbling with Scientology, it reminds me of something that I remember in Konitz's book.  I remember him describing the experience of going to see a certain musician and then talking about how he was playing "wrong" -- and then sort of being offended by it in a moralistic sort of way. (Don't hold me to this b/c it's been a while since I read the book, but I think it was Art Pepper.) And it wasn't as if Konitz felt like the artist was taking a "different path" than his; it was an issue of right and wrong/black and white. (I remember reading about Tristano and his crew getting up and leaving in the middle of other musicians' sets -- as if the music were offending them, somehow reprehensible. A similar sort of thing.)  Konitz is obviously an extremely intelligent, thoughtful guy -- and incredibly brilliant musician, one of my all-time favorites. But that stuff has always struck me as darn odd if not nutty.

 

Don't know which musician it was that Lee felt was playing "wrong," but the only times I recall him expressing disapproval in a moralistic manner was when he felt a musician was playing "schmaltzy."  Interpreting a bit, what I believe Lee meant by that was that he thought the player was dishing out pre-determined emotional tropes. "Honking" and "screaming" of course would apply, but so would any attempt to negotiate one's way through the act of improvisation that relied upon, again, placing in the foreground any musical-emotional "objects" that the player feels will in turn affect the audience emotionally in a given, predictable manner. This is Tristano doctrine, for sure, but Lee himself tries never to play that way and no doubt would get moralistic with himself if he did.

Not to derail this discussion, but to perhaps expand its scope... I'm trying to think of any players who, in turn, evince a Paul Desmond INFLUENCE, and I can't really think of any. Then again, perhaps said players occupy a different position with respect to what we think of as the main stream of jazz. E.g., just hypothetically, if we were to classify Chuck Greenberg as having been influenced in some way by Desmond, would that "count" in terms of the kind of saxophone lineages under review here?

How about Will Vinson?

I think so.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Larry Kart