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Jutta Hipp box set


Stefan Wood

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Very nice, and one of those cases where you wonder if you still ought to be tempted even if you already have about 80% of the contents in other forms.

Decidedly there seems to be much more to Be! Records than you'd think at first sight. They have made a splash here with their  regional Rockabilly (Texas and Michigan so far) box sets (though there have been discussions about the digital sources of part of the recordings used) and this is where the people behind the label come from (I know the guys fleetingly). Amazing there are others who straddle the fence from rockabilly to 50s/60s Eurojazz. I wasn't aware of their MOD Records box set either.

As for the "licensing department " angle, all the Jutta Hipp material obviously is in the Public Domain in EUROPE, so that's that ... And at least in the rockabilly section, with their box sets they have gone to great lengths there in documenting recordings that NONE of the U.S. guys or labels have seen fit to touch to any great extent for decades, let alone reissue coherently. It took Europeans to cover that ground (starting with Cees Klop from (Dutch) White Label Records). 

And even though a good deal of the material now on the MOD label box set has been reissued on CD on the Jazz Realities label some 15 years ago you've got to hand it to them - they went the whole way and left no stone unturned, it seems. Not something some shady label out to make a fast buck would do that way. How many diehard MOD label fans (keen to shell out for the whole package) can be out there after all?

 

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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Well, I'll tell you this: he's been doing non-PD (1960s/70s) reissues of records from a variety of labels - Vogue, Metronome, Muza - and the artists and their estates are absolutely not getting paid. I have my doubts that the owners of those catalogs in 2015 care about licensing a Barney Wilen title or whatever, so he's just doing them and they seem to be selling quite well. 

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I'm talking about pre-1960 stuff (which is what the MOD and Jutta Hipp and rockabilly reissues are all about) and it is ONLY THOSE that I am judging (admittedly mainly because those are about the only ones I'd be seriously interested in beyond what I already have). I won't be judging the others/more recent ones and if he gets himself into hot water about those because there WOULD be ground for legal action then he's had it coming to him and I won'tbe pitying him.

I was surprised to see the Barney Wilen title because I was under the impression there were other reissues of that LP around. OTOH if, as you say, no owner would have been interested in properly licensing those titles anyway then this raises certain other questions.

Anyway, looking at his catalog, royalty payments or not, this does not look like the typical "throw-together-and-run" stuff that someone would press up to make big bucks on the royalty-free grey label market. The work that went into these reissues goes beyond what even legit labels would do (let's face it, they just couldn't care less, and even that is putting it kindly ...).

Cf. the MOD box set, or the Joki Freund LP (very nicely done cover artwork taking up the Michael Naura Brunswick LP artwork, looks almost like a facsimile reissue. Too bad I have a mint copy of the MUZA LP and a very clean copy of the Jazztone 45 too, and I can live without the two remaining tracks, I guess ;). Or the very fitting artwork of the "Modern at the German Jazz Festival 1966" LP sets. As these are unreleased recordings, how would he have gotten those for release (and why didn't anybody else tackle them?)? Enough of those name artists are still around (Doldinger etc.) so if this had been an all-out bootleg ripoff deal the German jazz scene would be far too small to avoid having the lawyers breathe down your neck.

 

 

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Not that likely if that many  "name" artists are involved that are either still around or do have an estate right here where these records are being produced, pressed and distributed. Too hot to handle if there was anything blatantly seedy. The jazz scene isn't that big here and it IS transparent enough. And the "new" European copyright laws that establish a non-movable cutoff date of what remains within the copyright at the year 1962 have been discussed enough here to be known to everybody.

I see you have objections about all this as a matter of principle. Tell me, then, what is your interpretation of why there is the mention "Not for sale outside Japan" on those Japanese reissues that forumists around here (NON-Japanese, of course, and resident outside of Japan) buy up by the PETERBILT load all the time? Could it be that originally they just aren't licensed for sale outside the island as per whatever royalty agreement (if any) has been worked out for their (domestic) reissue down there? Isn't it about time to cut out those double standards in discussions like this that turn in circles only and lead nowhere anyhow?

Anyway ... maybe I'll get a chance to grab the MOD box set and see if and to what extent the Gigi Campi estate has given its blessing to that undertaking. Doing a 120-page book on 11 original releases takes some sleuthing to unearth stuff that doesn't just "circulate" around.

 

 

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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Probably this won't be read anymore but I'll give it a try:

Maybe I can shed some light on the MOD box set.  It is approved by the Campi estate. The masterings were made from EP's as most of the original tapes were destroyed in the cellar of Gigi Campi during a flood.

The sound quality is fine though not so much better than on the Jazzrealities CDs. Michael Frohne who did the Jazzrealities CDs is also on board for the BE! Jazz MOD box set. He provided the discography etc.

For me the main reason to buy the box was the book and my hope that the mastering would be good.

The same goes for the Jutta Hipp box on BE! Jazz. I have it at home at the moment to check what it will include. Realising that I have most of it already I will buy anyway it in a few weeks when I get some percentage. 140 euros are able to pull a minor hole in my bank account. I haven't yet opened the book - this I will do when I actually buy the box.

The mastering seems to be OK - but I haven't yet made a direct comparison.

In general I can say, that Micha Gottschalk - the man behind BE! Jazz really tries to licence every release on his label(s). But especially the bigger companies mostly won't do it. He is wealthy enough to pay what they want.

I remember especially one answer from Universal Germany when he tried to get permission for three recordings in their catalogue. The tenor of the reply was that they don't do 'small transactions" but only big business!  This information was not only some words from Mr Gottschalk but was confirmed by three sales-agents. One of them in fact from Universal Germany. He considers to go to Luxemburg with his company. There you have only 25 years for copyright protection....

Another example: I proposed a reissue of the LP "Springboard" to him. He tried to get a licence and according a telephone call we did some month ago he succeded this time.

Concerning the NDR Jazz Workshops he has released I know that he discovered that the NDR has no rights apart brodcasting. I believe that he hasn't aquired any rights for the releases. See here...

Micha Gottschalk is not always acting correct or lawful but he has no interest in cheating any artist or right-holders. He is a genuine fan and admirer of the artists/music he releases.

BTW - Mr. Gottschalk is not a friend of mine but I got to know him through my work as purchasing agent for Germany's biggest store for Jazz and Classical music.

Also I am not affiliated in any way with the lable(s) he has founded.

Hope the above is able to make the "BE-story" it a bit clearer.

 

 

 

 

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Thanks. The Wilen estate is pretty pissed about Zodiac. 

Thelin's estate and Dragon, who license his music, didn't approve the reissue of the Metronome LP. I know a few more stories from friends who've been undermined in their legitimate efforts to reissue titles by his activities, which were to merely 'get stuff out' quickly and ask questions later. So I'm not too excited about this label but am glad that at least the Campi estate approved the Hipp box.

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Not the Hipp box but the MOD one.

He has also tried to release the Cartsen Meinert LP. He told me that he was asked to withdraw his production which he did. I was the only one who got five LPs 'cause I ordered them early enough.

BTW - in another thread you're mentioning that you would like to see a reissue of the LPs from the MJQK/Fourmenonly.

There's real a chance this will happen - already was instrumental in getting the Free Jazz Group Wiesbaden LPs onto CD. Fortunately Danas Mikailionis and No Business had still 'room' for a CD in the 2015 schedule.  So from April when I first asked Dieter Scherf to the eventual release in September only five month. Off course we were lucky that it materialised so soon.

I know Herbert Joss a bit - he once borrowed me his remaining items of the four LPs so that I could make a rip for me and him. But I will contact Rudi Theilmann first. Hope to be able bring this on its way in early 2016. This time without the help of No Business - but I shall ask them later - maybe they still have 'room' for another part of early European Free Jazz.

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yeah, that was pulled because Meinert himself was working with my friend to get the record out properly, which did happen.

I'd surely love to see a nice collection of the FMO/MJQK material - including some of the unissued and compilation tracks that are floating around out there. I have the LPs but a nice CD set is always a good thing, if done properly.

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Will try to get a copy from Frederiksberg Records.

Theilmann has tapes from the German Jazz Festival 1970 and also from Switzerland plus some more. I also have the LPs - three of them I bought from Theilmann some years ago. He still has a few copies from each of the MJQK and FMO LPs. Also in his stock was Walpurgisnacht.

The best way of a reissue is IMHO a LP which includes a CD. But the costs for a LP are greater than for a CD off course. Maybe a kind of crowfunding would be a way - but it's not really to my gusto. However - a CD is better than a download or no reissue at all.

I'm glad that Jost Gebers agreed to allow FMP reissues on Bandcamp. I only hope he will one day start seriously to mine the extensive archive of never before released recordings from the TMM or the WFM (and more).

Mostly the funding is the problem. Paul Lovens has tapes he would offer for release. Same goes for Tony Oxley. He said to us he would sell the tapes for a relatively decent amount and than we could do with tapes as we choose. It's not wether one can get money from the music - Scherf and Sell do not get any direct financial compensation - but how it is possible to avoid a debt on the producer's bank-account :wacko:

My own expenses were quite low for the production of the FJGW CD - all in all about 50 or 60 euros. The costliest part was the photography of the group. I certainly can live with that. And I got a kind of fee from No Business for my work and liner which I hadn't expected at all.

But I'm in good hope

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Thanks for all this info, Onxidlib, about how BE! Records basically works.

In fact the gist of what you say was confirmed to me yesterday by a friend of mine who also is in a position to know at least to some extent.

Suffice to say to others reading this that if you press your vinyl in Germany by a German company (Pallas), as BE! Records do,  then GEMA (the instance taking care of mechanical copyright fees etc. here) will be involved and you cannot avoid paying up for your releases because GEMA will check on what copyrights (if any) there are. So once the GEMA has an eye on you the musicians' copyright question cannot be avoided anymore either. That the GEMA system is not a very fair one and the money you pay to them does not fully benefit the small or obscure artists (least of all those for whose releases you pay) but is distributed in a pretty odd way that tends to make the big ones bigger is another matter of discussion but this is beyond the control of ANYBODY releasing/reissuing records.

Anyway, I'll be looking forward to receiving the MOD box set which should arrive any day now (had found a source where the price was a bit lower so took the plunge after all).

 

P.S. One detail about your initial post, Onxidlib, though: I doubt that the copyright protection in Luxembourg is different form the "rest" of the EU, at least not according to what several online souces from Luxembourg say.

 

 

 

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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Don't know if it's really only 25 years in Luxembourg. I got the info but haven't checked it myself.

Wether unreleased Clarke-Boland Big Band tapes were washed away and unrolled I do not know.

But I know that some of the German broadcast station's should still have some unreleased tapes from the CBBB. I know one collector who has at least about 50 boots and occaisionally there's a broadcast here and there. F.e. one with Carmen McRae (not the one which was released on LP/CD). This one was even filmed in a series called "Jazz gehört und gesehen" from Joachim Ernst Berendt. Another one with Dakota Staton from '68. Remember a snippet with a nice sextet or octet were a young Manfred Schoof was playing. But also more without a singer but sometimes with guests (... one with J.J. Johnson). There are about 2500 to 3000 hours of Jazz only in the archives of the SWR (south-west Germany). A lot was also erased and or destroyed. But I digress...

Today I got a confirmation (though no proof) that the Hipp box set is legal as well. Not only for the music but also for all the pictures (most of them previously unknown) and Jutta Hipp's letter's, drawings and cartoons on musicians. There is a German sax-player and musicologist Ilona Haberkamp who visited Jutta Hipp twice in New York. She is involved in the project. Seemingly some of Hipp's relatives were asked for permission and gave papers/photographs. Again no proof yet but a confirmation.

Probably already this winter there will be a 9 CD box including a lot of photographs from the 12th German Jazz Festival. There was an abridged version on the LP Born Free which was released in 1970. I doubt it would be possible to release this without getting a permit from the GEMA. But how all the musicians or right holders will be involved I don't know.

Another problem can come up when the permit for printing a CD/LP is given in another country than were it was originally released. In the case of the Free Jazz Group Wiesbaden No Business applied and got the permit (I have seen it and forwarded it to the musicians). But according the label they didn't had to pay for it. No Business assumes this could mean that there's no information about the FJGW in Lithuania and therefore it isn't protected. I forwarded this as well to the msicians and now we have to check wether this situation can be cleared. So we have done it legally (I have a contract and the label has provided all necessary proofs for band and me) and but it is also not sufficiently secured....

 

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More impressions - not re- the Jutta Hipp box but the MOD label box (which arrived today here) and therefore re- the operations of the Be!" label as I perceive them:

Very, VERY nice finishing, presentation and packaging of the box set  (not the kind of glueish nonsense you seem to get from Mosaic ^_^). Overall nothing at all to fall short of the work of box set reissue labels such as Bear Family IMO. I'd post a few photographs to give an impression (maybe will do so later) but the pics on the Be! website might give an idea anyway. The repro vinyls show a lot of attention to detail too (and do sound good indeed ;)). I happen to have an original copy of the Bill Russo LP and the facsimile of this reissue really is a very close match (and no, I won't be complaining about the rose color of the label being a little bit darker on the reissue ;)). The book is impressive too, even for those who have the period mags that a lot of concert and record reviews are pulled from. A lot of key persons from the German jazz scene are credited in the acknowledgments (including some who no doubt would have had the leverage of blocking or at least hampering this release if it had had a blatantly bootleggish ripoff approach about it) so it must have received blessings from many sides.

Do you get value for money? In the end it's up to each one to decide for himself. I'd calculate like this: I paid 219 euros for the set. We get 5 10in LPs and 6 45  EPs plus 4 CDs.  For niche-market vinyl reissues (i.e. including those occupying just a niche within the "jazz niche" at large), 20 euros retail price for a reissue LP are not totally unheard of here. And then, say, 15 euros for a facsimile EP. Which would add up to 190 euros. Which leaves 30 euros for the book, the facsimile label poster and the CDs. Cheap all in all? No. Excessive? Not totally over the top, compared to what you see elsewhere.

Not that I'd count on many of those from 'cross the pond who smell a bootleg rat whenever some European reissue deal comes up (even if from the Public Domain era) revising their opinions from the ground up in these "debates" of (alleged) ripoffs, but tell me - when and where have you seen INDIVIDUALLY owned U.S. reissue companies last embark on projects like this (no, 20s blues doesn't count!)? ;)

Not that all is perfect, and not wanting to nitpick, but there are a few minor complaints. I did spot at least one error in the discography (incorrect reference to a previous - period - issue of the music on a label other than MOD) and one unclear label release reference which looks like an actual release but apparently wasn't - and they persistently spell that Italian label "Carish" (I know "Carisch" doesn't sound very Italian, but still ...), . And since it will probably be (or has already been been) pointed out by others that the contents of the CDs go beyond the contents of the vinyl and include "unissued" concert recordings, this isn't quite so. These recordings have been released before as an accompanying CD to a book called "Jazz in Köln". The book is still available secondhand for those who are dying to get it and many potential buyers of this box set probably own it anyway (me included, yes ;)) so already have that music. So this is a bit of a cheap way out of adding "bonus" stuff and a pity that precisely the tracks already released there have been recycled here, considering that a lot of other tunes were recorded at one of those concerts (titles and playing times are given in the discography so can it really be so that all those others have been lost?). But these are minor points and other reissuers are probably "guilty" of cutting corners far more. So  - yes, a very nicely done job and not one that reeks of cheapo bootlegging. Particularly since this is not likely to be a major seller everywhere.

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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