Could have been 'leaders' on their own BN dates???

[Rooster_Ties]

I was thinking about doing this as a poll, but I didn't want to "lead the witness", so to speak.

By "defend your choice", I mean on the artistic merits --- not on whether BN would have been open to it based on the business climate at the time, and not on whether the Liberty era BN would have been as open to these possibilities, as they might have been if BN hadn't been sold to Liberty in 1967.

In fact, just for the sake of this thread - let's assume that Liberty didn't buy BN until late 1974. That would give us a full 7 more years to play "what if", in terms of who could have gotten recorded - and gotten the chance to be leaders on their own dates. And, let's assume that the bottom didn't fall out of the jazz market quite so quickly as it did. I know, I'm suggesting that we rewrite history - but that's what this whole thread is about anyway!!

Also, I want specific suggestions for what year artist XYZ could have and should have been given the chance to be their own leader. I want real, plausible suggestions. In fact, it might even be fun to suggest potential line-ups.

And as long as we're at it, you can also suggest additional ("hypothetical") BN albums by established BN artists, who either fell away from the label sometime in the 60's, or who only got to lead a very few BN dates.

I'll go first...

===============

Charles Tolliver - I think Tolliver could have easily lead 4 or 5 BN dates of his own, the first one being recorded in 1965, with the following line-up...

• Jackie McLean (an obvious creative and marketing choice, since Tolliver was on three of McLean's dates)
  
• or James Spaulding (who really played with Tolliver in '65, as documented on that "New Wave in Jazz" disc)
  
• Herbie Hancock (played on at least a couple McLean albums, one of which included Tolliver, and Herbie was on Tolliver's first album in 1968)
  
• Cecil McBee (who did record for BN, with Jackie, and often with Tolliver in the early 70's)
  
• Joe Chambers (a frequent BN drummer on all kinds of dates)
  

And my defense of Tolliver as a real candidate for his own mid-60's BN date (several, in fact) is how incredibly strong he is on the Jackie McLean albums he's on between 1964-66. For example: A friend of mine bought the McLean Mosaic just about a year ago (for the first time), and it was his first time ever hearing any of the McLean BN material with Tolliver. My friend said that Tolliver just about steals the show. Jackie's playing is fantastic, but nearly every one of Tolliver's tunes are the strongest tunes on every McLean album he's on, overshadowing McLean's own tunes (which are still really darn good). I absolutely concur...

More generally, I think Tolliver was one of the strongest hard-bop composers (and players) to come on the scene after 1963 (which was really a watershed year for jazz, and hardbop in particular, in terms of integrating and reacting to the the 'New Thing', both of Ornette, and Coltrane). And, in his many sideman appearances, (I think) almost every tune that Tolliver wrote and recorded in the 60's is a classic. How Tolliver didn't get a record an album under his own leadership until 1968 is beyond me!!!

Edited April 17, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[BFrank]

Maybe this should have been a Charles Tolliver thread.

... not that there's anything wrong with that. B)

[Rooster_Ties]

Nah, I didn't intend for this to be an "all Tolliver" thread, not at all.

Really, I could have picked a dozen other people to lead things off with - but I went with my heart, with Tolliver.

I even had 10 'poll items' all picked out, so people could vote for their favorites - but then I thought that would be rather silly, since most of us would want 'new' (old) dates from nearly all of them. Plus, my list was pretty skewed towards the late 60's "progressive" hardboppers, like Tolliver, and some others I'll bring up in this thread later - if someone doesn't beat me to it.

I'm curious to see who all everyone suggests, and if there is any dissent about the plausibility of any suggestions put forth.

Ideally I'd like for this thread to be a debate about the merits of particular artists and their potential to have lead more dates earlier in their career, and for an important label like Blue Note. And, I'd love a little dissent to get going in this thread, if people don't think that artist XYZ had what it takes to be a leader, either that early in their career, or for whatever other reasons people might have.

==========

( And I'll go on record here that I'd love to get Chuck Nessa's input in this thread, in as much as he's interested. Chuck, I think you know the 'character' of the Blue Note label (especially in the mid-60's, late 60's, and very, very early 70's) - as well or better than anyone I've ever crossed paths with. You've got big ears, and especially have an incredible handle on the more creative and progressive dates on the label - the kind that seemed to become less and less frequent on BN after 1967. I'd love to hear you propose some albums and line-ups that really could have happened on BN, if only a few factors had been (admittedly) quite a bit different. )

Edited April 17, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Aggie87]

Rooster: You've got big ears

I hope Chuck doesn't come back with "Yeah, well your mother dresses you funny".

[WD45]

I think Art Blakey would have been a good candidate to lead a BN date, instead of jsut being a sideman.

Really, though--I don't think you will find anyone that would counter yourCharles Tolliver suggestion, for all the reasons you listed, but foremost composition. I think he would have been on top of the list for me. The fact that his compositional skill were so strong make the selection of another candidate difficult. Since they did not lead their own dates [on BN at least] we do not know if their writing chops were strong or not.

After that, I keep thinking of the Sun Ra sidemen who appeear on BN dates: James Spaulding, John Gilmore, and Julian Priester. I think a septet with Tolliver, these three guys, and Joe Chambers, Herbie Lewis, and McCoy in the engine room. That would have been super. The only way to top it would be to make it an octet; add Charles Davis on bari.

Speaking of Charles Davis, I think he might have benefitted from more sideman work on the BN label. His solid playing makes "Illumination" by the Jimmy Garrison/Elvin Jones Sextet such a draw for me.

[Rooster_Ties]

Damn, what an interesting idea - Tolliver with those Sun Ra sidemen. And, what I also like about it is that they all actually recorded on Blue Note as sidemen, several times each in fact -- so it rates relatively high on the "plausibility" scale. (Unlike getting Sun Ra himself to somehow have had a Blue Note album in the late 60's - which really stretches the imagination much, much to far. )

Clinton, how's about we slot in your idea for a Tolliver-lead album with the Sun Ra sidemen, as Tolliver's 4th Blue Note album (out of a total of 6!!), sometime in 1968.

( Am I'm pushing it to suggest that Tolliver could have had a total of 6 Blue Note albums, had the stars and planets been aligned differently??? There are other artists who I think could have lead on BN too, but would have only been one or maybe two shot deals, at best. Others I think could have done more like 4, or even 5 or 6.)

And what about some other suggestions, besides Tolliver?? Come on people -- I had more than 10 artists in mind, at first, and then I cut them down to just 10 when I still was gonna do the silly "poll" version of this thread. I can suggest them all myself, with line-ups and everything, but I wanna see what other people come up with too. I would have never thought of pairing Tolliver with the Sun Ra sidemen, so this thread is already generating the kind of ideas I'm looking for. Keep 'em coming!!

Thanks!!! B)

[vibes]

Woody Shaw - without saying too much, he led albums on the Muse label in the mid-60's. He had the chops, great compositions, and so on. He played on some memorable BN sessions ("Unity" being the most memorable, in my opinion), so why not? It actually kind of baffles me.

[Rooster_Ties]

Absolutely, Woody Shaw for sure. We need to come up with some line-ups for a few great Woody Shaw BN albums from the late 60's, that (unfortunately) never were to be.

And actually, I normally think of Woody Shaw's "Cassandranite"/"In The Beginning" as almost being a real Blue Note album. Hell, I think every sideman on the thing was a mainstay at BN.

[vibes]

How about Joe Chambers? He's long been one of my favorite drummers, and his compositions are great too - lots of memorable ones to be found on Bobby Hutcherson sessions. At least Blue Note got it right and put out something under his name in the late 90's.

[Chuck Nessa]

Shaw and Chambers are my choices. Sorry, but Tolliver is not a favorite of mine, and I can't believe Alfred would have spent money on him.

I said "sorry".

I do know BN did a couple of "test" dates with Woody and they didn't work out.

[Rooster_Ties]

Sorry, but Tolliver is not a favorite of mine, and I can't believe Alfred would have spent money on him.

What if I took back the comment about your "big ears"???

(even if they do look like this)

Edited April 18, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

How about Joe Chambers?  He's long been one of my favorite drummers, and his compositions are great too - lots of memorable ones to be found on Bobby Hutcherson sessions.  At least Blue Note got it right and put out something under his name in the late 90's.

That's one of the things I said to Hutcherson, backstage a couple years ago. "Thank you for giving Joe Chambers so many tunes on all your albums." I think there's probably a good album-and-a-half worth of Chambers tunes, between all the Hutcherson albums. Heck, half of "Components" is all Chambers, and it's really damn good stuff.

Actually, I suspect I would have enjoyed any (hypothetical) "classic era" BN albums lead by Chambers, more than either of Tony Williams actual "classic era" BN albums. (Not that they're bad, but I've never really gotten into either one very deeply. Been ages since I've listened to either one, so that's another couple I need to dig out and spin soon.)

In my 'pretend world', I think Chambers could have probably done two albums on BN, but anything more than two stretches the "plausibility" factor a bit too much, even for me.

Edited April 18, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Roundsound]

I think for sure Woody Shaw would have broken thru with BN. He had Joe Henderson in his corner. And I would think Horace Silver would have given a good push.

I was also surprised how good Tolliver was on the McLean sessions. But I didn't see Tolliver used much elsewhere. Was he?

I think some of the artists on Prestige would have preferred the strong Blue Note label. Such as Byard or maybe Charles Earland.

What about a further relationship with Dolphy?

[alankin]

I've wondered about James Spaulding, who certainly was on enough Blue Note dates as a side man. Maybe he wasn't doing enough writing, though...

[kdd]

The Blue Note tests for Woody were released in the '80s on Muse (In The Beginning?) and I thought they were great. I thought Tolliver would be ideal too because he would have made great records. His playing while not up to Hubbard and Morgan was solid and he was a great composer, an important part of making a great record.

[Chuck Nessa]

I have not met the man, but industry "insiders" have told me that Joe Chambers' "personality" held him back.