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Oliver Nelson on Prestige


JSngry

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Funny to read in the liners how Nelson said he wrote himself as lead alto on that date to "prove" that he could play lead alto. In today's environment, that might sound like primarily a  personal challenge, but in that timeplace, no, that was a business move addressed at contractors, hey guys, call me, I can do that too.

Still primarily working as a player at time, still hustling for work. He's been posthumously recognized as a workaholic as a writer, once the jobs got big and many, but here he is before that, looking to parlay a writing date into more playing work. He was, as they say, highly motivated, and his eyes were not on nightclubs and one-nighters.

There were a few others looking to make those moves, but none of them were playing like that, and for darn sure none of them were inviting Eric Dolphy to come along.

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Funny to read in the liners how Nelson said he wrote himself as lead alto on that date to "prove" that he could play lead alto. In today's environment, that might sound like primarily a  personal challenge, but in that timeplace, no, that was a business move addressed at contractors, hey guys, call me, I can do that too.

Still primarily working as a player at time, still hustling for work. He's been posthumously recognized as a workaholic as a writer, once the jobs got big and many, but here he is before that, looking to parlay a writing date into more playing work. He was, as they say, highly motivated, and his eyes were not on nightclubs and one-nighters.

There were a few others looking to make those moves, but none of them were playing like that, and for darn sure none of them were inviting Eric Dolphy to come along.

Which date was that, "Trane Whistle"?

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Nothing much I can offer to the thread, but I've always loved Oliver Nelson. He sure could write and play the blues. "Jams and Jellies" from "Introducing.." and "Emancipation Blues" from "Afro-American Sketches" are two personal favourites.

Edited by rdavenport
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Main Stem a quintet date with Joe Newman, Hank Jones, George Duvivier, & Charlie Persip,  today was my first time with ii, and it was I it I ally disorienting. The mix is weird, New mas is way undermiked, it sounds more like a Joe Newman record as often as not, I could a stood more interactive comping from Hank Jones, all in all, first reaction was a big fat hmmmmm.....

A few more playings, though, and what would have been Side Two of the LP ends up being pretty frisky. Sound is still weird, but the J&B lubricant mentioned in the liners were definitely having their intended effect.

I can see why this was an OJC Limited Edition, something is missing as far as overall heft, but there's enough for it to be a keeper, if only after further review

And - the closing "Tangerine" is an outstanding example of how big Nelson's tenor sound really was. Not bright, not edgy, just BIG.

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There's also that Newman record on Mercury (AT COUNT BASIE'S) that features Nelson on the front line. So this was more or less or very briefly a working band [?]

 

Edited by Joe
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2 hours ago, Joe said:

There's also that Newman record on Mercury (AT COUNT BASIE'S) that features Nelson on the front line. So this was more or less or very briefly a working band [?]

 

There is a mention in one of the Prestige liners that it was, yes.

Did not know that record, though...a hunting we will go...

Nelson continued to use Newman too...he has a very memorable feature on "St. Louis Blues" from that Leonard Feather Encyclopedia Of Jazz Verve album, the same one where Phil Woods took that turn on "I Remember Bird" that still gets favorable mention today.

well, that was easy!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WILA36?ie=UTF8&keywords=joe%20newman%20at%20count%20basie%27s&qid=1464016378&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

And Art Davis!!!!!!!

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1 hour ago, Peter Friedman said:

I was underwhelmed by both the Main Stem and the Joe Newman at Count Basie's albums.

They were both just ok, but not more than that in my opinion. Disposed of them both a while back. 

Well, what the hell - I like the At Count Basie's better than that.

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On 5/21/2016 at 6:04 AM, sidewinder said:

Yep - superb all round, arrangements and solos.

I wonder if it is just me -- I have never been able to get into Afro-American Sketches, and have had it a couple of times over the years.

That Joe Newman record smokes... as do the small group dates with Dolphy (both of which I also sold but you can't keep everything). 

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Not really looking to get any level of whelming out of any of this, just personally cartographing  out of curiosity.

New today:

21TF9C6KHTL._SY400_.jpg

Not sure what to think...maybe no need for an absolute opinion. There are times when these are not the right arrangements for Etta Jones (and or when Etta Jones is the right singer for these arrangements). Neither the recording nor the performances (nor, on occasion, the arrangements) are as consistently refined as befits the occasion. Tempos are occasionally bizarre. I'm not even sure if the vocals were recoded live with the orchestra. One wishes the whole thing had happened at another time, anither place, another budget. Perhaps of significance, there are no quotes from either artist in the liners.

There are times, though, when it all comes together, and there are times when one element works too good for the other one to interfere with it  And either way, I dig Etta Jones, and I dig Oliver Nelson  I doubt that this will ever be an album I love, or ever really like, but the next time there's an Oliver Nelson hang, there's a few cuts on here that will get played, and played well.

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On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 4:49 PM, Chuck Nessa said:

 I loved the contrast in the Nelson / Dolphy Prestige dates - Nelson solos sound like granite and Dolphy always seemed about to go off the rails.

Been spending the last few days with a lot of listens to these two. Both are near-perfect in a way that Blues And The Abstract Truth would be, with a certain...rawness that that one of almost necessity would not have, not as much, anyway.

Screamin' The Blues is the more "controlled" of the two, all things considered, but Richard Williams adds some real zest to the proceedings, solos and ensemble. But holy shit, Straight Ahead...holy shit. Nelson is like granite ok, like granite that's way up there on the Richter scale. This might be his most consistently intense, most..."extroverted" playing on record ("Ralph's New Blues" is freakin' dangerous). And Dolphy, yeah, Dolphy wasn't going off the rails, he was lifting them off the ground!

Always like coming back to these two every few years, new rewards every time, no exceptions!

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1 hour ago, Guy Berger said:

It's a testament to good packaging and marketing that TB&TAT has such reputational dominance relative to its 2 Prestige siblings.  (Not a criticism.)

And the personnel on the record:  An all star cast when it was released. 

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On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Larry Kart said:

Afro-American Sketches!!!! Do not miss this one.

 

Revisiting this one today, great writing, really great, and the apparent logistical choice to make Nelson himself the focal point as soloist throughout would turn out to be, sadly, a rarity In his big band canon.

Also had a listen today to Johnny Hammond Smith's Talk That Talk with Nelson on three cuts. Now I can say I've heard It...

 

 

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Intersting, maybe, is that the only other Nelson big band album where Nelsons playing is as fully up front as much as this one is Black, Brown, and Beautiful  (the real one), although that is very different music and only sometimes "big band".

In either case, though, very personal statements about very personal concerns, one full of what is essentially a hopeful look at the past leading forward, the other a very stinging look at the present where whatever hope there might be would be that things have gotten as bad as they're going to get.

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With Trane,  right?

Wondering how much the initial Edwards-suggested impetus to create an album along the "African" theme was an immediate response to Africa/Brass, and whether or not Dolphy and Nelson had conversations about that one, you know, just talking shop. Something for idle speculation I suppose, but either way, Art Davis.

I love Nelson's response when asked to do an African themed album, that he didn't know anything about Africa or its music, and then how he dryly notes that all of the records he was given to study were claimed to be by the most violent tribes, ALL of them, and then how he gradually etc. VERY dry commentary.

Of course, this is the same guy who would later tour Africa and come back to say that he didn't hear any jazz roots in Africa, everything sounded like James Brown, and who a few years later said thank god for slavery, it gave the Black man the Dominant chord, and just all kinds of things that were either hopessly ignorant or else really layered, and Oliver Nelson did not seem like a hopelessly ignorant man.

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3 hours ago, JSngry said:

With Trane,  right?

Wondering how much the initial Edwards-suggested impetus to create an album along the "African" theme was an immediate response to Africa/Brass, and whether or not Dolphy and Nelson had conversations about that one, you know, just talking shop. Something for idle speculation I suppose, but either way, Art Davis.

I love Nelson's response when asked to do an African themed album, that he didn't know anything about Africa or its music, and then how he dryly notes that all of the records he was given to study were claimed to be by the most violent tribes, ALL of them, and then how he gradually etc. VERY dry commentary.

Of course, this is the same guy who would later tour Africa and come back to say that he didn't hear any jazz roots in Africa, everything sounded like James Brown, and who a few years later said thank god for slavery, it gave the Black man the Dominant chord, and just all kinds of things that were either hopessly ignorant or else really layered, and Oliver Nelson did not seem like a hopelessly ignorant man.

If this is the Nelson quote on Africa and slavery that you have in mind, I don't think it quite says: "Thank God for slavery."

 

I thought that in going to Africa we would find some black faces and we would be able to exchange things musically. But in the major portion of my tour there, in the capital cities, we didn’t find one person who could play any jazz. And then I started to think about it: was American slavery the catalyst that was needed in order to make this music? Why did it only happen her and nowhere else? It didn’t happen in the Virgin Islands. It didn’t happen with the Africans who went to South America. Why did jazz only happen here?  Maybe slavery was the answer.

He's saying that maybe the experience of American slavery (and/or slavery in the setting of America) was in some respects the answer to his question: "Why did jazz happen here?"

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Down Beat, April 24, 1975, page 10. New Hope For The Abstract Truth by Dr. William J. Fowler, the very opening line

 

Quote

"Thank God for Slavery, because, I guess, jazz wouldn't have happened otherwise...

The actual quote comes at the end of a flow of thouht, but that is the quote. And it is the opening line of the article.

I was wrong about the dominant chord thing, though. Here's the exact quote:

 

Quote

I thought all black people could play the blues.But I found out I was wrong -it was a myth.In Africa they don't know when to go to the IV chord.

 

So,, Subdominant chord. My quote is funnier, but it's not based on an Oliver Nelson quote.

The whole article is worth a resd. He's still talking about lead alto, how important that was to him coming up, not learning Bird links, but getting a big sound that could lead a section.

He was a Marine, you know.

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