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The Bill Savory Collection


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6 hours ago, John L said:

I recall a pretty extraordinary Down Beat article by McDonough where he argued that anyone who likes late period Coltrane must be suffering from psychological issues.  The music is so plainly terrible, in his opinion, that it can only be embraced by someone who is in denial of an evident fact.  :D

haha. I remember discussing the article on JC. and it wasn't written in the 60ies but probably in the late 90ies early 20ies.

 

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I'd listened especially to the Basie / Young / Evans  pieces in the Savory collection, in 2011 and 2015, and wondered if the Harlem Jazz Museum added and subtracted some selections that were on the computer during the intervening years. There's a bit of duplication of music that was on bootleg LPs and CDs. Anyway, that collection includes some of the greatest jazz music ever.

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3 hours ago, johnblitweiler said:

I'd listened especially to the Basie / Young / Evans  pieces in the Savory collection, in 2011 and 2015, and wondered if the Harlem Jazz Museum added and subtracted some selections that were on the computer during the intervening years. There's a bit of duplication of music that was on bootleg LPs and CDs. Anyway, that collection includes some of the greatest jazz music ever.

There's still some duplication and I think some of it has been available from different sources.

23 hours ago, miles65 said:

In May I spent a couple of hours listening to as much as posible from the Savory collection. I listend to all Ellington items. Going throug the Goodman items  choosing those likely to be by the sextet with Charlie Christian. Then I looked for other interesting items with Benny, Lester and Roy Eldridge. Off course there was not time enough to listen to everything. I'm sorry I didn't take more notes of what I listend to. Not enough paper.  An afternoon well spend.

Did you find anything  by the BG sextet with Christian? 

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On 19.7.2016 at 10:01 PM, Larry Kart said:

Yes, McDonough pretty much joined (or tried to join) himself to BG at the hip (and to John Hammond as well). John might be thought of as a Swing Era Moldy Fig, if you know what I mean -- even though the Swing Era was coming to end when he was born (probably in 1942, same as me; he was a high school classmate of mine). That is, while I don't doubt that John really likes the music he really likes, he likes as much or perhaps even more what he thinks it was like to have been alive and kicking in that world, would go back and live there forever if time travel were possible. I think John has gone on record that his favorite writer on jazz, social style, etc. is the late Boston newspaper columnist George Frazier. Google should fill you in on who Frazier was; if it don't, I'll give it try.
 

Disregarding for a moment what this fellow wrote and just concentrating on what by his own admission just was his preferred style of jazz on a PERSONAL level, that just makes him the antipode to all those "jazz" fans out there (and if you are being honest you will admit that there are quite a few of them around these days, including on forums) to whom anything older in jazz than hard bop is just "old hat" in jazz and a sort of "trad jazz" anyway - not just swing, but anything originally recorded in the 78 rpm era. "Bird? Why bother, I have Jackie McLean. etc. etc., and besides, Bird did not record for Blue Note, so ... " (Yes I am exaggerating but I guess you get the attitude I am referring to :D) A bit like building your house from the 4th floor on up with nothing underneath. Don't you think that such a house is fairly likely to crumble before long? As opposed to those who for whatever reason choose not to build their house beyond 3rd floor. They won't be able to take in quite interesting views they'd get if they were to venture higher up but at least they do live on a somewhat more solid foundation. Just a case of limitations of a different kind but not more limited than those who give short shrift to "earlier" styles of jazz, particularly if enjoyed (and played) long after their heyday.

Anyway ... don't be that dismissive of those who make an effort to take in the whole era and environment of their favorite music. Even though misinformed nostalgia may cloud their judgment at times, something worthwhile may come of it if you really do your homework research-wise and LEARN. Many of those who have eventually done fine research on past times and events have developed along these lines. Which cannot be said of some of those who have approached the subject with an overly scholarly and formalistic attitude.

As for George Frazier, if you disagree (understandably) at least you could have mentioned Frazier's involvement with Down Beat (which puts things on an ever so slightly different level). And if Richard Vacca's "Boston Jazz Chronicles" are anything to go by, Frazier DID champion jazz both in Boston and in his work for DB to quite some degree during those years. As for Frazier being a favorite writer, well, "favorite" is one thing, but does this necessarily equal "greatest writer"? Mileages (and tastes) vary (personal preferences too) but if this fellow is firmly in a swing groove (or call it swing rut if you want) then one might just argue why George T.Simon is not in that favorite league (but is this what you were getting at? ;)). BTW, as far as period writing on the swing era is concerned, would those rate higher in your esteem who would have wished Otis Ferguson had lived longer? ^_^

The bottom line: Tastes differ, and what has come to be "accepted knowledge" too. Yet sometimes it can be very helpful (to better understand after all) to bypass that "accepted knowledge" and refer to past events as seen in the light of their times and THEN draw your own conclusions. 

 

On 20.7.2016 at 9:41 PM, gmonahan said:

I spent the better part of a day listening to it a couple of years ago.  There's some wonderful stuff there, including a lively little performance from Herschel Evans.  I hope lots of it gets issued, including the BG stuff.

 

gregmo

+1

I probably can do without most of the BG stuff (though I am not in the anti-BG field but there just is SO MUCH by him already) but am pretty sure I would take the plunge for mp3s too if no other format ever materializes. Particularly the Basie/Young/Evans sessions and the jam sessions mentioned earlier in this thread.

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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3 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Disregarding for a moment what this fellow wrote and just concentrating on what by his own admission just was his preferred style of jazz on a PERSONAL level, that just makes him the antipode to all those "jazz" fans out there (and if you are being honest you will admit that there are quite a few of them around these days, including on forums) to whom anything older in jazz than hard bop is just "old hat" in jazz and a sort of "trad jazz" anyway - not just swing, but anything originally recorded in the 78 rpm era. "Bird? Why bother, I have Jackie McLean. etc. etc., and besides, Bird did not record for Blue Note, so ... " (Yes I am exaggerating but I guess you get the attitude I am referring to :D) A bit like building your house from the 4th floor on up with nothing underneath. Don't you think that such a house is fairly likely to crumble before long? As opposed to those who for whatever reason choose not to build their house beyond 3rd floor. They won't be able to take in quite interesting views they'd get if they were to venture higher up but at least they do live on a somewhat more solid foundation. Just a case of limitations of a different kind but not more limited than those who give short shrift to "earlier" styles of jazz, particularly if enjoyed (and played) long after their heyday.

Anyway ... don't be that dismissive of those who make an effort to take in the whole era and environment of their favorite music. Even though misinformed nostalgia may cloud their judgment at times, something worthwhile may come of it if you really do your homework research-wise and LEARN. Many of those who have eventually done fine research on past times and events have developed along these lines. Which cannot be said of some of those who have approached the subject with an overly scholarly and formalistic attitude.

As for George Frazier, if you disagree (understandably) at least you could have mentioned Frazier's involvement with Down Beat (which puts things on an ever so slightly different level). And if Richard Vacca's "Boston Jazz Chronicles" are anything to go by, Frazier DID champion jazz both in Boston and in his work for DB to quite some degree during those years. As for Frazier being a favorite writer, well, "favorite" is one thing, but does this necessarily equal "greatest writer"? Mileages (and tastes) vary (personal preferences too) but if this fellow is firmly in a swing groove (or call it swing rut if you want) then one might just argue why George T.Simon is not in that favorite league (but is this what you were getting at? ;)). BTW, as far as period writing on the swing era is concerned, would those rate higher in your esteem who would have wished Otis Ferguson had lived longer? ^_^

The bottom line: Tastes differ, and what has come to be "accepted knowledge" too. Yet sometimes it can be very helpful (to better understand after all) to bypass that "accepted knowledge" and refer to past events as seen in the light of their times and THEN draw your own conclusions. 

 

+1

I probably can do without most of the BG stuff (though I am not in the anti-BG field but there just is SO MUCH by him already) but am pretty sure I would take the plunge for mp3s too if no other format ever materializes. Particularly the Basie/Young/Evans sessions and the jam sessions mentioned earlier in this thread.

I said of the young McDonough and of the later McDonough as well, "while I don't doubt that John really likes the music he really likes, he likes as much or perhaps even more what he thinks it was like to have been alive and kicking in that world, would go back and live there forever if time travel were possible."

There is a difference between liking/loving some of the music of the past because of its undoubted virtues (BTW, McDonough's roster of beloved music of the past pretty much cuts off BEFORE as well as after the Swing Era) and liking/loving the musical and societal past because it is (so one believes) inherently opposed to the present -- such that one's love for that musical and societal past in part stands for one's hostility toward the musical and societal present and one's desire to more or less escape from and/or overturn it. In other words, McDonough is a blend of the nostalgia-hound and the reactionary.

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Yeah, when I grew up and realized that what McDonough was writing in DB was more about being a sort of bow-tie contrarian, I sort of cut him off. And this was before some of you kids were even born! :g

Although, I think he was the guy who got the Lester Young court marshal transcripts into DB, so hey, not a menace to society or anything, just a bow-tie contrarian, for me, pick one or the other and it's coll. But both?

Nah.

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Yeah, when I grew up and realized that what McDonough was writing in DB was more about being a sort of bow-tie contrarian, I sort of cut him off. And this was before some of you kids were even born! :g

Although, I think he was the guy who got the Lester Young court marshal transcripts into DB, so hey, not a menace to society or anything, just a bow-tie contrarian, for me, pick one or the other and it's coll. But both?

Nah.

Bow-tie contrarian is perfect. Hey, if he could get away with it, he might wear spats. And carry a cane,

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1 hour ago, medjuck said:

BTW The collection also contains a couple of tracks of Hawkins'  playing Body and Soul a few months before he recorded it for RCA.   I listened to one that was quite a bit longer than the record and it was great. 

Yes. It's a very good take of that tune.  

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The original Benny Goodman Trio & Quartet were pretty awesome and they made some great records which still hold up today because of their energy & swing, the groups' cohesive sound and the creative musical improvisations from each of the members.  I have a lot of Benny Goodman recordings and happen to enjoy them, but if I were to be stranded on the proverbial desert island (and depending on events, that may be an appealing prospect come Nov. 9th), it would be the Goodman Trio & Quartet recordings, out of all his works,  that I would consider indispensable.

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14 hours ago, duaneiac said:

The original Benny Goodman Trio & Quartet were pretty awesome and they made some great records which still hold up today because of their energy & swing, the groups' cohesive sound and the creative musical improvisations from each of the members.  I have a lot of Benny Goodman recordings and happen to enjoy them, but if I were to be stranded on the proverbial desert island (and depending on events, that may be an appealing prospect come Nov. 9th), it would be the Goodman Trio & Quartet recordings, out of all his works,  that I would consider indispensable.

Uh oh ... while I can enjoy these recordings for what they are, they are one of those examples where I really see why a lot of fans and experts of music from the 78 rpm era state that music originally issued on 78s ought to be listend to "the 78 rpm way" - one piece at a time, and not on an LP (or CD) in one go all the way (though they usually refer to early blues or country music when they say so). Those trio and quartet session do tend to wear me out if listened to in LP servings in one go - mainly for Gene Krupa's insistent clobbering (at almost anything above ballad tempo) that to me just drags things down (give me Jo Jones or Big Sid Catlett - for example - any time - and am I the only one who somehow feels Dave Tough brought more nuances to drumming in those BG small group settings than Krupa ever did?).  ;)

Yet Teddy Wilson and Lionel Hampton usually save they day for me, but in the long run I still prefer the sextets

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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5 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Uh oh ... while I can enjoy these recordings for what they are, they are one of those examples where I really see why a lot of fans and experts of music from the 78 rpm era state that music originally issued on 78s ought to be listend to "the 78 rpm way" - one piece at a time, and not on an LP (or CD) in one go all the way (though they usually refer to early blues or country music when they say so). Those trio and quartet session do tend to wear me out if listened to in LP servings in one go - mainly for Gene Krupa's insistent clobbering (at almost anything above ballad tempo) that to me just drags things down (give me Jo Jones or Big Sid Catlett - for example - any time - and am I the only one who somehow feels Dave Tough brought more nuances to drumming in those BG small group settings than Krupa ever did?).  ;)

Yet Teddy Wilson and Lionel Hampton usually save they day for me, but in the long run I still prefer the sextets

I'd have to go back again to be sure, and I do doubt myself in this (if only because of the weight of Krupa's mostly negative reputation), but  there are times when I've thought while listening to BG's small groups that Krupa was the Tony Williams of the Swing Era. That is, his interjections/decorations or what you will were at once compositionally coloristic and rhythmically meaningful, albeit meaningful in a significantly different, more discursive (if you will) manner than the work of Jo Jones, Catlett, et al.

In particular, placing Krupa's actual merits and debits a bit to one side for the moment, one ought not to get caught up in a "progressive" narrative of jazz's rhythmic styles and development. Krupa, I would say, comes from a Chicago-style approach in those realms, an approach that he helped to shape; and one could argue that -- again placing a bit to one side the "wave" of jazz's historical stylistic development -- it too had/could continue to have (at least until it became too "historical"?) its own musical validity.

Not quite the same thing, I admit, but did Lester Young's undeniably more "progressive" approach invalidate that of Coleman Hawkins? Further, as the example of Sonny Rollins' relationship to Hawkins should perhaps make clear, is it not possible for any number of aspects of a style that has been more or less been run over by the "progress" of history to later on recur quite strikingly, albeit in somewhat altered forms, because another master finds them necessary and meaningful.

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4 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

I'd have to go back again to be sure, and I do doubt myself in this (if only because of the weight of Krupa's mostly negative reputation), but  there are times when I've thought while listening to BG's small groups that Krupa was the Tony Williams of the Swing Era. That is, his interjections/decorations or what you will were at once compositionally coloristic and rhythmically meaningful, albeit meaningful in a significantly different, more discursive (if you will) manner than the work of Jo Jones, Catlett, et al.

In particular, placing Krupa's actual merits and debits a bit to one side for the moment, one ought not to get caught up in a "progressive" narrative of jazz's rhythmic styles and development. Krupa, I would say, comes from a Chicago-style approach in those realms, an approach that he helped to shape; and one could argue that -- again placing a bit to one side the "wave" of jazz's historical stylistic development -- it too had/could continue to have (at least until it became too "historical"?) its own musical validity.

Not quite the same thing, I admit, but did Lester Young's undeniably more "progressive" approach invalidate that of Coleman Hawkins? Further, as the example of Sonny Rollins' relationship to Hawkins should perhaps make clear, is it not possible for any number of aspects of a style that has been more or less been run over by the "progress" of history to later on recur quite strikingly, albeit in somewhat altered forms, because another master finds them necessary and meaningful.

I did try to take your point (of Krupa coming from an earlier stylistic period that he never quite abandoned) into consideration and basically I agre wiht what you say. I can only give my own personal (subjective) judgment (that of a fan/collector/listener, not a critic) that to my ears and feel Krupa just weighs things down instead of lifting them up.  Admittedly I associate "lifting the rhythm up" with more emphasis on the cymbals. And even if you do not focus on cymbals, the way Chick Webb, for example, propelled his bands along without resorting to cymbal-heavy drumming (that might be considered "progressive" in this sense) is a totally different class by itself. And comparing these two at least to MY ears exemplifies the difference between "driving along" and "clobbering".  I think I see what you mean with Krupa's interjections/decorations but compared to Webb who "pushes straight ahead" Krupa often sounds oh so "stationary" (or "running in circles" if you will) to me.

I am aware of the "progressive" narrative and am trying to keep this in mind to try to appreciate the music the way it was meant to be when it was made and for example, am bored rather quickly by a lot of latter-day old-time ("dixieland") jazz recordings that claim to bring back the mood of that era but rely on drummers who ride the cymbals like mad. But here we are talking about recordings from an era not that far away from Chicago jazz, and Dave Tough, for example, who came from Chicago too, DID develop into a somewhat lighter and flexible touch, didn't he? And I don't think this was to the detriment of his artistic personality.

Now as for drummers rooted in Chicago jazz and STAYING there, for some reason (from what I have heard anyway) George Wettling, for example, just handles this in a less burdensome and more fitting manner (to MY taste, though probably colored by the fact that his swing-era recording settings were more traditional by swing-era standards).

Just my 2c and just a subjective opinion, but just trying to explain why I often just find Krupa sort of "out of tune" with his surroundings.

 

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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On 20-7-2016 at 7:31 PM, medjuck said:

There's still some duplication and I think some of it has been available from different sources.

Did you find anything  by the BG sextet with Christian? 

Yes there are sextet tracks with Christian. For reasons I don't understand myself I stoped making notes after listening to the Duke recordings. There is a lot of Goodman and I went for the usual suspects. But I don't remember wich tunes I heard.:angry:

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1 hour ago, miles65 said:

Yes there are sextet tracks with Christian. For reasons I don't understand myself I stoped making notes after listening to the Duke recordings. There is a lot of Goodman and I went for the usual suspects. But I don't remember wich tunes I heard.:angry:

Great!

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