The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Captain Howdy said: TBH I didn't put that much thought into the question. I suppose you could take it in one of two ways: 1) what's the most pretty awful album that you greatly love? 2) what's the worst jazz album ever made? You're probably right that there can be no jazz equivalent of Ed Wood. Bad movies like his relied on the existence of a B-movie circuit of non-discerning audiences for which jazz records probably has had no equivalent. Ha! 1 I don't know what standards to use, even in my own mind, that I could feel I actually had a good reason for such a judgement.. Of course, as a joke, I'd say 'Kind of blue'. 2 It's surely a matter of taste. One's view of the most pretty awful is probably inevitably going to be by someone you don't like. Looking at Felser;s few a few posts back, I'd say that I dislike Jackie McLean a very great deal so I'd be prepared to accept 'Monument' as a pretty awful album - but I haven't heard it. I suspect his view is almost certainly coloured by the fact that it seems overly commercial. And I don't mind that a bit; I like it when jazz musicians make outright commercial albums, so I MIGHT like that (if I didn't know it was McLean). I don't know Brother Ah, though I'm kinda interested in his name. I used to have 'Om' and hated it, but probably wouldn't say it was rubbish. And I've got the Donald Byrd, don't think it's a bad album, though it's not a favourite - but that's another where someone attempted to get another hit and it didn't come off as well as 'his A new perspective' hit. But I bet Byrd got well paid for it. He went to Verve, I dare say, because he'd asked Blue Note for royalties on his hit album and was, as Francis Wolf said in an interview I heard on the BBC, told to fuck off, as were Jimmy Smith, Lou Donaldson and others, because it wasn't in their agreement; Blue Note paid cash over the odds on sessions and rehearsals so they didn't have to bother with royalties.. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 30 minutes ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said: Blue Note paid cash over the odds on sessions and rehearsals so they didn't have to bother with royalties.. Let it be noted, though, that Blue Note did let select artists set up their own publishing companies. To hear Herbie Hancock tell it, it was Donald Byrd who educated him on why that was important and how to get it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 1 hour ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said: 2 It's surely a matter of taste. One's view of the most pretty awful is probably inevitably going to be by someone you don't like. Looking at Felser;s few a few posts back, I'd say that I dislike Jackie McLean a very great deal so I'd be prepared to accept 'Monument' as a pretty awful album - but I haven't heard it. I suspect his view is almost certainly coloured by the fact that it seems overly commercial. And I don't mind that a bit; I like it when jazz musicians make outright commercial albums, so I MIGHT like that (if I didn't know it was McLean). MG There is good commercial and bad commercial jazz. My collection is chock full of really good CTI albums featuring brilliant Don Sebesky arrangements, 70's John Klemmer albums like 'Touch' and 'Barefoot Ballet', plenty of Joel Dorn Atlantics, etc. The McLean is horrid commercial, and a desecration to McLean. The cover alone is reason enough, but here's a sample: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 Made it as far as the backup singers chiming in. That’s truly awful shit. I need to listen to listen to some Chuck Mangione to cleanse the palette. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 I`ve never heard Monuments, but the track above was actually much better than I had anticipated. I think it's fascinating to hear McLean on this material, which I don't think was so bad. Didn't care so much for the spoken lead voice, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 3 hours ago, JSngry said: Let it be noted, though, that Blue Note did let select artists set up their own publishing companies. To hear Herbie Hancock tell it, it was Donald Byrd who educated him on why that was important and how to get it done. That was standard practice. Soon after they set up, BMI was telling all the indies to set up their own publishing companies so they could scam musicians. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 No, standard practice was for the label to set up their own in-house publishing companies. Blue Note was no exception. There's a Cadence interview with Ronnie Boykins where he claims that Happy Frame Of Mind was deliberately unreleased b/c Boykins would give up his publishing for "Home Is Africa". So yeah, publishing was income, and an indie label did not give up income lightly. What I'm talking about was the label allowing some artists to own their own publishing, rather than requiring it be kept in-house with the label. This was no small matter, and they didn't let but a few people do it. But it was Donald Byrd who hipped Herbie Hancock to the need to own his own publishing instead of giving it away to the label. Not sure, but maybe Horace Silver set the precedent, he had Ecaroh Music to publish his stuff. When he started that company, and when/how he negotiated with Blue note about it, I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 30 minutes ago, JSngry said: No, standard practice was for the label to set up their own in-house publishing companies. Blue Note was no exception. There's a Cadence interview with Ronnie Boykins where he claims that Happy Frame Of Mind was deliberately unreleased b/c Boykins would give up his publishing for "Home Is Africa". So yeah, publishing was income, and an indie label did not give up income lightly. What I'm talking about was the label allowing some artists to own their own publishing, rather than requiring it be kept in-house with the label. This was no small matter, and they didn't let but a few people do it. But it was Donald Byrd who hipped Herbie Hancock to the need to own his own publishing instead of giving it away to the label. Not sure, but maybe Horace Silver set the precedent, he had Ecaroh Music to publish his stuff. When he started that company, and when/how he negotiated with Blue note about it, I don't know. Yes, sorry, I wrote it wrong, because the board insisted I put it in the quote box and I always get befuddled when it buggers me about. I don't know about Ecaroh Music, either and have wondered about it for years. Historians don't talk about this kind of stuff, but how musicians get their money really is as important as the music they make, because they couldn't keep on if they didn't. And if the record companies are scamming by twisted legalities or downright illegalities like keeping three sets of books - one for the taxman, one for the artists and one for real, it's in the public interest to know. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin V Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 5 hours ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said: I'd say that I dislike Jackie McLean a very great deal[...] Who doesn't like Jackie Mac?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 34 minutes ago, Justin V said: Who doesn't like Jackie Mac?!? Me - I just sed sew. OK, I WILL tolerate him when he's playing with someone I love - like Gene Ammons - or like - like Tina Brooks, or Sonny Clark. So I have 'Jackie's bag' and 'Tippin' the scales'. But I might just as well not have, for the times I've played 'em. I suspect it's more like him, not his music - he comes over to me as a mean bastard. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Justin V said: Who doesn't like Jackie Mac?!? Tastes differ, which is why any list entails a certain amount of subjectivity, and there is nothing wrong with being subjective. Edited August 10, 2018 by Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 Still waiting to find somebody who doesn't like Jackie but digs Rene. You know there's gotta be at least one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 35 minutes ago, JSngry said: Still waiting to find somebody who doesn't like Jackie but digs Rene. You know there's gotta be at least one. If they don't like Jackie, what are the chances they even know who Rene is? That being said, they are very different musicians. Maybe a Woody Shaw fan somewhere fills the bill, as Shaw played with both of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milestones Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) Felser, are these are all records you truly enjoy? The Jackie McLean is pretty bad, and nearly always identified as such. And I had just been listening to lots of good/great McLean--and I don't care what anyone says, he is great. As they say, everyone makes a bad choice from time to time. Edited August 10, 2018 by Milestones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, Milestones said: Felser, are these are all records you truly enjoy? The Jackie McLean is pretty bad, and nearly always identified as such. And I had just been listening to lots of good/great McLean--and I don't care what anyone says, he is great. As they say, everyone makes a bad choice from time to time. No, I don't truly "enjoy" any of them, but I stand in fascinated awe of them in a certain sense (like watching a car crash), so am more likely to listen to them than to a bland, well-played-by-the-numbers mainstream date from the past 35 years. Does anyone really "enjoy" Plan 9 From Outer Space? Or make any claims to it being anything other than awful? I even own the Coltrane and the Byrd (though the Byrd was just the cost of business to get the attached Grant Green/Larry Young album on the Verve CD). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 53 minutes ago, JSngry said: Still waiting to find somebody who doesn't like Jackie but digs Rene. You know there's gotta be at least one. I've got one Rene McLean album. I don't mind him. He's also, if memory serves without digging the LP out, on Woody Shaw's 'Love dance'. I ain't even slightly opposed to Rene, but I can't really say there are very many hard bop players I really like except Hank Mobley. But categorisation's dodgy - I love Horace Silver, but think of him as a soul jazz player. Basically, I don't like hard bop. Too hard; too boppish; too much like real jazz. MG Just now, The Magnificent Goldberg said: I've got one Rene McLean album. I don't mind him. He's also, if memory serves without digging the LP out, on Woody Shaw's 'Love dance'. I ain't even slightly opposed to Rene, but I can't really say there are very many hard bop players I really like except Hank Mobley. But categorisation's dodgy - I love Horace Silver, but think of him as a soul jazz player. Basically, I don't like hard bop. Too hard; too boppish; too much like real jazz. MG Just read Felser's post. Well, now you know someone who doesn't like Jackie but has heard of Rene - and even got one of his albums. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milestones Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 Regarding Plan 9, it has a certain entertainment factor; and I have seen many movies that were worse. As to jazz, maybe we need a thread on guilty pleasures--stuff we're a little ashamed to admit that we enjoy. A thread I started on CTI Records is perhaps sort of in this vein. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, Milestones said: Regarding Plan 9, it has a certain entertainment factor; and I have seen many movies that were worse. As to jazz, maybe we need a thread on guilty pleasures--stuff we're a little ashamed to admit that we enjoy. A thread I started on CTI Records is perhaps sort of in this vein. Well, you didn't put anything in it anyone should be ashamed of! MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 I have no guilt about the CTI records I like. I know what they did, how they did it, why they did it, and I like them for all of that. I have some I don't like, but I'm not guilty about that either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 16 minutes ago, JSngry said: I have no guilt about the CTI records I like. I know what they did, how they did it, why they did it, and I like them for all of that. I have some I don't like, but I'm not guilty about that either! QRT MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 48 minutes ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said: I've got one Rene McLean album. I don't mind him. He's also, if memory serves without digging the LP out, on Woody Shaw's 'Love dance'. I ain't even slightly opposed to Rene, but I can't really say there are very many hard bop players I really like except Hank Mobley. But categorisation's dodgy - I love Horace Silver, but think of him as a soul jazz player. Basically, I don't like hard bop. Too hard; too boppish; too much like real jazz. MG Just read Felser's post. Well, now you know someone who doesn't like Jackie but has heard of Rene - and even got one of his albums. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 24 minutes ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said: QRT QRT? https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/QRT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, JSngry said: QRT? https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/QRT None of those. They must be American. Quite right too. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 American letters? Is that like classical instruments? Am I being goaded into an opinion here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, JSngry said: American letters? Is that like classical instruments? Am I being goaded into an opinion here? Hur hur. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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