AOTW August 21-28, 2016: Herbie Mann Today

[mikeweil]

Herbie Mann Today : 

Jimmy Owens (tp,flhrn) John Hitchcock, Joe Orange (tb) Herbie Mann (fl) Dave Pike (vib) Earl May (b) Bruno Carr (d) Carlos "Patato" Valdes (cga) Oliver Nelson (arr,cond)

 New York, November 18, 1965

9602 The night before

9603 Yesterday  

9604 Creole love call

9605 Don't say I didn't tell you so   

New York, November 19, 1965

9606 Today

9607 Arrastao 

9608 The mooche 

9609 If you gotta make a fool of somebody

All titles first isued on Altlantic LP 1454, currently available as CD 8122-79599-3

Herbie Mann is a controversial figure among jazz fans, often accused for selling out - indeed there are some downright commercial outings in his voluminous discography. On the other hand he was the one who popularized the flute in jazz, featured many promising talents in his working bands, and was a pioneer of fusing jazz with music from many parts of the world: he was among the first to record with musicians from Brazil, Cuba, Turkey, Japan ... he was a good, inventive soloist and covered a lot of musical ground with an enormously wide range.

This album, released in 1966, is different from his other Atlantic LPs, which featured either his working band or specially conceived studio projects, as it combines both: He had Oliver Nelson, who already arranged for Mann with studio orchestras, write eight pieces for his working band of trumpet, two trombones, and rhythm. The members of his band at the time featured an aspiring trumpet talent, Jimmy Owens, who should have been much better known for his personal sound, combining Dizzy Gillespies brightness and agility with a warm, round tone; vibist Dave Pike, one of the best of his generation, who shared Mann's affinity for Latin music; and a superior bass/drums team, Earl May, improvising great lines and giving a lesson of what to do with Latin bass patterns over jazz changes, and Bruno Carr, who played for ten years with Mann, playing his own fusion of modern jazz drums with Latin inflections. The album has two warhorses from the Ellington songbook (Creole Love Call, The Mooche) besides the latest Beatles hit (Yesterday), one of their less known tunes (The Night Before), one by Edu Lobo, a Mann original (the title track). In my ears it is exemplary how Nelson writes for just three brass, making the most of them, giving Mann the lead. I learned a lot from listening to Mann's records, and this one made me admire Nelson's profound writing and the intensive groove of all participants. 

I will write more about specific tunes - I would be delighted if another board member enjoys this album as much as I do.

Edited August 23, 2016 by mikeweil

[felser]

Don't own this one and have never heard it (Mann, he did a lot of albums on Atlantic!), but have ordered it (in a twofer with "Roar of the Greasepaint") for a good price off half.com, and will listen and respond if it gets here  in time.

Edited August 24, 2016 by felser

[JSngry]

I was not aware that Joseph Orange was on any record other than Fire Music, Now I see that he was!

https://www.discogs.com/artist/256584-Joseph-Orange

I might have bought this on LP over the last few years, but have not listened to it if so. I do want to hear Oliver's writing, and Bruno Carr is a no-brainer. And Earl May, never a minus, ever.

As far as tunes go, the one I'd really like to hear off this record is "If You Gotta Make a Fool Of Somebody". I think Herbie Mann played the melodies of these type of R&B songs in a very organic way. Why/How/Etc. hell if I know, or care really. "Never Can Say Goodbye", different period, but gain, melody played very nicely, imo. Soloing, eh, whatever, but if you really wanted to buy a Herbie Mann record for just for the soloing...that day had come (such as it did) and gone. But the guy did have a way with a melody, a ballad, especially.

If I end up not having this, or find that I have bought it as an Oliver Nelson artifact or some such, I will have to consider looking for a legit CD copy. Oliver Nelson, Bruno Carr, & Earl May, that alone makes it worth paying something for!

[mikeweil]

It's an enjoyable disc, really. Herbie is inspired by the arrangements and his rhythm section. Always had good taste in selecting tunes and sidemen. 

The sound on the latest reissue is excellent, btw (remastering engineer not credited, original engineer was Tom Dowd). No idea how the Collectables reissue sounds.

Joe Orange was part of Mann's working band for a while, There even may be a trombone solo on the New Mann At Newport LP, IIRC. 

Jim: It was, at least in part, your posts about Oliver Nelson on Prestige, that led me to throw this into the box of CDs for enjoyment in the car ride to our vacation, and I was listening so closely to Nelson's horn voicings that I noticed I had to watch the road more closely instead. 

For those interested in Mann's life, I can recommend this book:

[felser]

10 hours ago, JSngry said:

 

If I end up not having this, or find that I have bought it as an Oliver Nelson artifact or some such, I will have to consider looking for a legit CD copy. Oliver Nelson, Bruno Carr, & Earl May, that alone makes it worth paying something for!

http://product.half.ebay.com/The-Roar-of-the-Greasepaint-The-Smell-of-the-Crowd-Today-by-Herbie-Mann-CD-Mar-2006-Collectables/3464564&cpid=1067254378

 

[mikeweil]

The Roar Of The Greasepaint, The Smell Of The Crowd is an album with the same band plus strings, arranged by Ray Ellis, and piano and guitar added to the rhythm section (Chick Corea/Mundell Lowe or Roger Kellaway/Gene Bertoncini; three tracks are without Pike, on which Turk Van Lake plays guitar. No idea how the music is, it's one of the few Mann albums I never heard.  

Edited August 24, 2016 by mikeweil

[soulpope]

On 24.8.2016 at 9:33 AM, mikeweil said:

 

The sound on the latest reissue is excellent, btw (remastering engineer not credited, original engineer was Tom Dowd). No idea how the Collectables reissue sounds.

Was not aware about Tom Dowd being the recording engineer here ....

[JSngry]

Got a copy today, listened once. Very much like Oliver's charts, really interesting use of an interesting instrumentation. Also like the rhythm section, although I do feel a little groove-whipped by the end. But as an LP, one side at a sitting seems like it would have been, uh, groovy.

But...If  I could get a karaoke mix of this album, that would be great. Herbie Mann is superfluous on his own record, imo. OTOH, he's the reason the record got made, so c'est last vie. And for the time it stays a ballad, I do like the way he plays the melody on "Yesterday".

On balance, glad to have gotten it, Oliver's charts consistently pique the ear, and the Ellington tunes foreshadow his later 3 Shades Of Blue album.

[mikeweil]

There's a nice moment at the end of the theme of Creole Love Call when they (Nelson? Mann? both?) tack on the closing phrase of Blue Monk. Just three horns, and all getting their own melodic variations, one moves up, while the second goes down, and the third plays the original melody. It really made me listen to the brass.

I'm not surprised that you're no big Mann Fan, Jim. Seems to be one of the soloists you either love or not. I always loved him, for his engaged, rhythmic phrasing, putting groove over harmonic sophistication. And I like groove-oriented music, and that it is, too. I can groove for days on his stuff. 

This is the later album you mentioned? Will put it on the wish list - used CD copies momentarily go for € 30 or more ... maybe a case for vinyl.

That's one thing I ilke about these discussions: you always get a hint towards more interesting music. A copy of Mann's Roar of the Greasepaint CD reissue is waiting at the post office - got it at sellout price at my main mailorder shop. Nice coincidence. 

Edited August 27, 2016 by mikeweil

[JSngry]

That's the one.

I do like Mann as a melodist.

[mikeweil]

On 24.8.2016 at 8:03 PM, mikeweil said:

The Roar Of The Greasepaint, The Smell Of The Crowd is an album with the same band plus strings, arranged by Ray Ellis, and piano and guitar added to the rhythm section (Chick Corea/Mundell Lowe or Roger Kellaway/Gene Bertoncini; three tracks are without Pike, on which Turk Van Lake plays guitar. No idea how the music is, it's one of the few Mann albums I never heard.  

Got a copy of this, too, just had a listen. Today is the more cohesive, sound-wise and musically, as the Roar is held together only by the fact that all tunes are from the same musical, are all in different grooves and moods. Mann is at his best on the slow tunes, like Who Can I turn too, the best known of the bunch. Ray Ellis' string parts border on the obtrusive, in parts, Tom Dowd's great engineering saves it. I would have been better if they had taken the tunes und just played them in a jazz fashion. 

[felser]

On 8/24/2016 at 2:03 PM, mikeweil said:

The Roar Of The Greasepaint, The Smell Of The Crowd is an album with the same band plus strings, arranged by Ray Ellis, and piano and guitar added to the rhythm section (Chick Corea/Mundell Lowe or Roger Kellaway/Gene Bertoncini; three tracks are without Pike, on which Turk Van Lake plays guitar. No idea how the music is, it's one of the few Mann albums I never heard.  

Really.  11 tunes in under 29 minutes, with strings to boot?  That will be a "listen once" experience, though I don't think anyone can mess up Newley's gorgeous "Feeling Good" too badly.   I've spent 3/4 of my lifetime loving the long live version of that on Traffic's 'Last Exit'.